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The Icon Bar: Games: Ads [was: Ads in games]
 
  Ads [was: Ads in games]
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Phil Mellor Message #99664, posted by monkeyson2 at 14:01, 9/3/2007
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
Very poor
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John Hoare Message #99666, posted by moss at 14:12, 9/3/2007, in reply to message #99664

Posts: 9346
I love in-game advertising if it's done in an appropriate, clever, or witty way, which is integrated properly into the game world... but every single one of those screenshots is shite.
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Phil Mellor Message #106138, posted by monkeyson2 at 10:21, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #99666
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
I love in-game advertising if it's done in an appropriate, clever, or witty way, which is integrated properly into the game world... but every single one of those screenshots is shite.
I'm holding you personally responsible for this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7199881.stm

STOP PUTTING ADS IN EVERYTHING
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VinceH Message #106141, posted by VincceH at 10:54, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #106138
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1586
I'm holding you personally responsible for this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7199881.stm
I'm sure it's not his fault that the writer's grammar is so poor.

"...could be applied to other franchises its owns."

"The games has a..."

STOP PUTTING ADS IN EVERYTHING
Oh, that's what you meant.

TBH, it doesn't bother me, either, as long as it's done in an acceptable/appropriate way and isn't intrusive. If anything, with the right type of game, real adverts would help add to the realism of the game.

Ignoring the fact that games - like movies - tend to throw realism out of the window in favour of making them more interesting/fun to watch/play. And of course, we don't want to add fuel to those idiots that complain about kids becoming influenced in their real lives by what they see and do in games. Damn, you're right! NO MORE ADVERTS IN GAMES! THEY'LL MAKE KIDS STEAL CARS AND DOWNLOAD PIRATE MOVIES! Oh, hang on, am I confusing threads here?
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Phil Mellor Message #106142, posted by monkeyson2 at 11:06, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #106141
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
STOP PUTTING ADS IN EVERYTHING
Oh, that's what you meant.

TBH, it doesn't bother me, either, as long as it's done in an acceptable/appropriate way and isn't intrusive.
Advertising IS intrusive. That's kind of the point of it.

Name me three things which have been improved by the introduction of advertising (other than, possibly, the price being lower or free - because that's not an improvement, it's just being a CHEAP BASTARD. tongue)

If anything, with the right type of game, real adverts would help add to the realism of the game.
No, it will mean that there's less chance of games being made that can't have this sort of advertising included.
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VinceH Message #106143, posted by VincceH at 11:24, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #106142
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1586
Advertising IS intrusive. That's kind of the point of it.
Intrusive advertising gets in the way. Advertising can also be non-intrusive, and not get in the way. Off the top of my head, one example where real advertising would work would be in games like GTA, where you have radio stations playing - just stick real advertising where the made up ones sit in the radio soundtracks. Don't want the adverts? Turn off the 'king radio!

Name me three things which have been improved by the introduction of advertising
Three of the bus shelters I waited at last week.

(other than, possibly, the price being lower or free - because that's not an improvement, it's just being a CHEAP BASTARD. tongue)
I AM a cheap bastard at every possible opportunity. tongue
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Jason Togneri Message #106144, posted by filecore at 11:27, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #106143

Posts: 3867
I enjoy fake or slightly altered real ads in games, as well as ones which reference rival games, or earlier games in a series. Duke Nukem and Doom spring to mind, among others. However, blatant "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY NOW" ads with no artistic or subtly humourous merit are simply annoying.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #106148, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:25, 21/1/2008, in reply to message #106143
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15057
I love in-game advertising if it's done in an appropriate, clever, or witty way, which is integrated properly into the game world... but every single one of those screenshots is shite.
I'm holding you personally responsible for this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7199881.stm

STOP PUTTING ADS IN EVERYTHING
It's alright, this is EA. You'd probably never want to buy any of their games anyway.

Advertising IS intrusive. That's kind of the point of it.
Intrusive advertising gets in the way. Advertising can also be non-intrusive, and not get in the way. Off the top of my head, one example where real advertising would work would be in games like GTA
No it wouldn't!

The fake funny ads in GTA are about twenty trillion times better than shitty real ads.

Name me three things which have been improved by the introduction of advertising
Three of the bus shelters I waited at last week.
Also, the three TV programmes which you hate the most. Because the more adverts there are, the less chance there is of you accidentally seeing the programme while channel surfing!
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Phil Mellor Message #106876, posted by monkeyson2 at 23:26, 25/3/2008, in reply to message #106148
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
STOP SPOILING TELLY.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #106877, posted by Phlamethrower at 23:51, 25/3/2008, in reply to message #106876
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15057
Time to resurrect that idea I had for a PVR/similar that would detect and filter out adverts? I'm sure that image recognition has come a long way in the last few years smile
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Andrew Poole Message #106878, posted by andypoole at 01:47, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106876

Posts: 5552
STOP SPOILING TELLY.
It's thought that some broadcasters would adopt an American model, where adverts are shown immediately after the opening credits.
I wondered how long it'd be before this was adopted over here. Shorter programmes with more breaks. For those who don't know, in America they don't have ads between programmes but have ads straight after the opening titles (which are usually preceeded by an opening scene), and have ads before the closing credits and the "next time on . . ." closing scenes. As well as the usual 10-15 minute breaks. It's quite odd watching it like that when you're used to our current way of doing ads.

And they wonder why people download programmes so much.
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Jason Togneri Message #106881, posted by filecore at 06:19, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106877

Posts: 3867
I think that PVR has been out for a while. The TV stations sends a signal on a sub-frequency with other info on it (teletext-type stuff, time and date info, program name, etc - that's how digital TVs have all the info to hand), and on some channels you can even see it.

I don't know about now, but it used to be that on ITV you could always see when the adverts were about to start because the (supposed-to-be-hidden) little black-and-white scrolling box thing appeared in the top right corner.
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Phil Mellor Message #106883, posted by monkeyson2 at 09:54, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106881
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
When did the money grabbing tossers take over telly and decide to make it shit? Channel logos, credit squeezing, up-next graphics during programmes, and now US style ad breaks.

What do we have to do to make them stop?
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Andrew Poole Message #106884, posted by andypoole at 10:01, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106883

Posts: 5552
When did the money grabbing tossers...
At the end of the day, that's what it's all about.

What do we have to do to make them stop?
More money? tongue
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Simon Willcocks Message #106885, posted by Stoppers at 12:48, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106877
Member
Posts: 278
Time to resurrect that idea I had for a PVR/similar that would detect and filter out adverts?
Call it Adnix (iirc); it's how the rich person got that way in Contact, by Carl Sagan.
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Simon Willcocks Message #106886, posted by Stoppers at 12:56, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106878
Member
Posts: 278
STOP SPOILING TELLY.
It's thought that some broadcasters would adopt an American model, where adverts are shown immediately after the opening credits.
I wondered how long it'd be before this was adopted over here. Shorter programmes with more breaks. For those who don't know, in America they [...]
I used to occasionally watch The Late Show in Germany (on the only English language channel the hotel could get). There was an associated teletext page that explained the FAQ:

"Why is the late show only one hour long in Europe instead of the normal two hours?"

The answer: "We cut six minutes from the show, and don't run as many adverts". (It still had plenty of ads.)

And they wonder why people download programmes so much.
I saw a downloaded off-air Stargate SG1 once; it was practically unwatchable with flashy adverts all over the screen while the program was running. Utter crap.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #106887, posted by Phlamethrower at 14:26, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106881
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15057
I think that PVR has been out for a while. The TV stations sends a signal on a sub-frequency with other info on it (teletext-type stuff, time and date info, program name, etc - that's how digital TVs have all the info to hand), and on some channels you can even see it.
I was thinking of something a bit more robust, that would work even without that info (If enough people start using it to detect when an ad break has started, the broadcasters will just change it so that the programme and ad break are indistinguishable). Instead use image/audio recognition software that would identify the advert and cut it out of the recording. It could even extend as far as un-squishing the end credits of programmes (although the quality might not be that great), or attempting to remove the channel logo from the corner of the screen.
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Jason Togneri Message #106888, posted by filecore at 14:31, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106885

Posts: 3867
Call it Adnix (iirc); it's how the rich person got that way in Contact, by Carl Sagan.
No, because then you'd lose a lump of your profit on copyright expenses and royalties to Mr Sagan.
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Matthew Somerville Message #106889, posted by Matthew at 14:46, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106881
Matthew

Posts: 519
I don't know about now, but it used to be that on ITV you could always see when the adverts were about to start
Yes, it's still used sometimes in e.g. live broadcasts - Digital Spy thread about it.
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John Hoare Message #106893, posted by moss at 16:53, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106889

Posts: 9346
I certainly wouldn't want ads cut out of my recordings - the best adverts are an utter joy to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHzhptiDxtE

Not to mention that coming across old recordings and watching the ad breaks from years ago is fascinating. Although it's slightly depressing that the ads were of generally better quality fifteen years ago...

Agreed about US-style ad breaks being terrible, though.
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Phil Mellor Message #106894, posted by monkeyson2 at 18:00, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106893
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
I certainly wouldn't want ads cut out of my recordings - the best adverts are an utter joy to watch.
Yes, but when I want to watch a TV programme, I actually want to watch the programme, preferably without interruption (whether that's an ad break, a telephone call, or my dinner).

I don't care how well made the ads are - I'm just not going to like them if they're getting in the way of what I'm trying to see.

Not to mention that coming across old recordings and watching the ad breaks from years ago is fascinating.
That's a separate issue. I'm happy to feel nostalgic seeing old ads and continuity between programmes, and recognise that they have to exist in some form, but it's just not an excuse to spoil every broadcast programme with so much intrusive behaviour.

I'd actually like to feel nostalgic about the programmes too, but that's not going to happen now. When I remember TV Burp, I'll think of those crappy sponsorship animations. The I.T. Crowd? End scenes and punchlines being ruined by on-screen prompts. Doctor Who? Shitty end credits and Graham Norton's grinning features. I'm more nostalgic about the BBC's ad-free broadcasts of 24 than the versions that Sky broadcast.

The only way I'll ever feel nostalgic about these abominations is that I know in the future things will be even worse.

Basically, I'm not happy.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #106895, posted by Phlamethrower at 18:09, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106894
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15057
Basically, I'm not happy.
Kings of Power 4 Billion % doesn't have adverts, you should watch that tongue
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John Hoare Message #106896, posted by moss at 18:11, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106894

Posts: 9346
Yes, but when I want to watch a TV programme, I actually want to watch the programme, preferably without interruption (whether that's an ad break, a telephone call, or my dinner).

I don't care how well made the ads are - I'm just not going to like them if they're getting in the way of what I'm trying to see.
Well-placed ad breaks have never bothered me. If it's a film, I find it useful, to go and get a drink or something. With something like TV Burp... well, I just don't find it distracting or unpleasant to have an ad-break halfway through. Straight after the titles? Yes, that would be awful, and I'm greatly upset by the recent OFCOM stuff. But a sensible point halfway through, as like now - no.

In fact, they add a nice bit of grammar to the programme - a well-timed joke into an ad-break is a joy to behold.

I'd actually like to feel nostalgic about the programmes too, but that's not going to happen now. When I remember TV Burp, I'll think of those crappy sponsorship animations. The I.T. Crowd? End scenes and punchlines being ruined by on-screen prompts. Doctor Who? Shitty end credits and Graham Norton's grinning features. I'm more nostalgic about the BBC's ad-free broadcasts of 24 than the versions that Sky broadcast.

The only way I'll ever feel nostalgic about these abominations is that I know in the future things will be even worse.

Basically, I'm not happy.
Oh, I *totally* agree about DOGs, end credit squeezing, badly-placed ad breaks, and the like. It's all abominable.

But ads placed at sensible points in programmes? It's not a problem. They have to put them somewhere, and I wouldn't want ten minutes of ads between programmes anyway.
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Phil Mellor Message #106897, posted by monkeyson2 at 19:35, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106896
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
But ads placed at sensible points in programmes? It's not a problem. They have to put them somewhere, and I wouldn't want ten minutes of ads between programmes anyway.
Advertising execs are never reasonable. They're slowly turning everything into a billboard, ready for advertising dollars to cover it. TV programmes, films, books, video games, web sites, buildings, school books, people's foreheads... everything. I just want to pay a reasonable price to enjoy nice stuff, without people trying to hijack it and sell me stuff. I don't want to buy things all the time. Stop trying to sell stuff to me. I absolutely hate it. It makes me feel sick.

Sensible advertising slots just allow the rot to set in. There's talk of adding sensible and discreet advertising in games. How long will that last? I give it a couple of years at most. Soon another pleasure will be ruined.

Many web sites have reasonable text ads provided by Google. Then comes Phorm. Products and services driven by advertising will always (always!) end up like shit. Google will turn shit too. Give it time. Even the BBC have succumbed - advertising their programmes inbetween shows wasn't enough, nor was the credits - now they do it during the content.

Look at the full moon. Beautiful, isn't it? Somebody, somewhere is looking at it and wondering how to write Diet Coke on it.

Advertising is a parasite. I despise it. The only solution is to reject it completely.
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John Hoare Message #106899, posted by moss at 20:40, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106897

Posts: 9346
Wow. That's... just... wow. I don't think I've ever disagreed with you more.

I agree that advertising taken to extremes is not good. But, then, *so* many things in this world are repulsive if taken to extremes. That doesn't invalidate the entire idea.

More to the point - there is NO way that advertising will disappear completely. Not a chance in hell. You'd be better fighting for sensible use of it, rather than getting rid of it entirely - because that ain't going to happen.

And you know what? I'm glad. Me personally, I like this NOTBBC post:

My problem with anyone's "beef" about adverts is it is always narrow about what constitues an advert.

Mostly it's people who have a problem with traditional television or radio adverts.

But adverts come in many different forms.

For example, if you hate all advertising, you must also hate pop videos.

That's all they are - simply slightly longer adverts for you to buy a song or an album.

Or what about station IDs? These are mini adverts to sell the concept of the station to you?

Film trailers? Personally, for me these are the worst form of advertising - narative pornography.

Logos, posters, desktop icons - on and on and on - all advertising.

While one can be detest the concept of advertising, to say you hate all adverts is failing to open your eyes to what is easily the most prolific and successful artforms of this century.
I'd go even further than that. Rejecting all advertising would get rid of some of the most joyous and fun things I've ever seen - including TV ads. There's a Woolworth's advert with Kenny Everett that I only have to think about and it cheers me up, whenever I feel down. (I'll stick it on YouTube at some point, as I've got an article planned about advertising.)

A world without advertising would deprive me of so many wonderful things. I wouldn't like to live in your world, any more than I would like to live in a world covered with advertising and nothing else.
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VinceH Message #106900, posted by VincceH at 21:04, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106897
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1586
Advertising is a parasite. I despise it. The only solution is to reject it completely.
<Notes that Phil advertises his website next to his Avatar> tongue
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Phil Mellor Message #106902, posted by monkeyson2 at 21:54, 26/3/2008, in reply to message #106899
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
Wow. That's... just... wow. I don't think I've ever disagreed with you more.

I agree that advertising taken to extremes is not good. But, then, *so* many things in this world are repulsive if taken to extremes. That doesn't invalidate the entire idea.
Well, I guess I was taking my idea to extreme too wink Nothing like a good rant. tongue

For example, if you hate all advertising, you must also hate pop videos.
Or what about station IDs? These are mini adverts to sell the concept of the station to you?
I think there's a distinction between this sort of promotion and intrusive TV ads. Music videos are generally shown on particular channels or web sites - you have to actively seek them out. If I'm not interested in watching a music video, I won't have to. Station idents are more like chapter headings or illustrated book covers. They're content; they're part of the work itself. An ad break for Coldseal windows isn't. It isn't what I tuned in to hear.

(Incidentally, I do hate lots of music videos, but that's because they're full of American teenagers having a sexy time, or rappers shaking their fists like an angry Victorian gentleman, or something similarly pretentious.)

Logos, posters, desktop icons - on and on and on - all advertising.
Logos, again not intrusive. They're just meta-information about the product. Again, you only get the logo if you have the product.

Apple make great products. They have great branding. If I'm interested in looking at some neat industrial design I'll check them out. I'm also happy to go to their website or online store, or an Apple store (if Leeds had one, bah!) or a shopping centre and see their marketing materials. It shows I'm interested in their products and would like to be informed about them. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that.

But I don't want to see everyone on Heroes prominently carrying Macbooks, or to be reminded about how thin the Air is when Hannah Spearitt is supposed to be wrestling with a raptor on Primeval. It's the intrusiveness, the context switch, that I hate.

I'd go even further than that. Rejecting all advertising would get rid of some of the most joyous and fun things I've ever seen - including TV ads. There's a Woolworth's advert with Kenny Everett that I only have to think about and it cheers me up, whenever I feel down. (I'll stick it on YouTube at some point, as I've got an article planned about advertising.)
Fine, but you're enjoying it in the right context. You want to watch an ad. I like watching ads when I'm in the mood for watching them. But when I'm watching a TV show, that's all I want to watch. And if there was a dark, moody drama that was interrupted by Kenny Everett, it wouldn't matter how great the ad was - it's just not the time or the place.

Focus, man, focus!

A world without advertising would deprive me of so many wonderful things. I wouldn't like to live in your world, any more than I would like to live in a world covered with advertising and nothing else.
Bah, I've obviously not sold it to you very well. Unfortunately it's against my principles to do so. wink

VinceH:

<Notes that Phil advertises his website next to his Avatar>
That's hardly advertising. It's just part of the attributing the post to me, as opposed to any other Phil Monkeyson Mellors. If it was a link to Apple.com or telling you to buy some tasty potato based snacks, you'd have a point, but in this context it's closer to content or metadata.
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John Hoare Message #106905, posted by moss at 02:53, 27/3/2008, in reply to message #106902

Posts: 9346
Fine, but you're enjoying it in the right context. You want to watch an ad. I like watching ads when I'm in the mood for watching them. But when I'm watching a TV show, that's all I want to watch. And if there was a dark, moody drama that was interrupted by Kenny Everett, it wouldn't matter how great the ad was - it's just not the time or the place.
I think the thing is that I don't necessarily tune in for *just* a dark moody drama. I tune in for the whole television experience - which, yes, can include ads, which I enjoy watching if they're good. That's just how I watch telly - you're clearly different.

Mind you, in well-written-and-edited shows, the structure of the program allows for ads, so you don't feel like you're thrown out of the show with nothing to guide you. Instead, they become an integral part of the viewing experience - and the ad breaks act like exciting mini-cliffhangers. They can make the murders in your dark, moody dramas even more effective!

I find credit squeezing, too-short credit sequences, DOGs, and all the rest of it really fucking annoying. None of it adds anything - all it does is detract from the programme. Same with badly-placed ad breaks - and nothing would make me switch off faster than an ad break placed just after the titles. But if they're well-placed, I think they can actually add to the viewing experience.

As for product placement - it's something I don't really know too much about, to be honest. Mainly because I'm too unobservant to notice it, and I don't watch many films or American TV shows either, which is generally where you'll find it. I'm too busy watching old BBC sitcoms where every single Cornflakes package is covered up tongue
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Phil Mellor Message #106952, posted by monkeyson2 at 11:37, 1/4/2008, in reply to message #106905
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
Why do I get the feeling that the BBC will show a pop-up for Any Dream Will Do during Doctor Who?
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Phil Mellor Message #108584, posted by monkeyson2 at 21:53, 21/10/2008, in reply to message #106952
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
I take it all back: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7681914.stm
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The Icon Bar: Games: Ads [was: Ads in games]