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The Icon Bar: General: Dock article on Wikipedia
 
  Dock article on Wikipedia
  This is a long thread. Click here to view the threaded list.
 
Mike Message #108195, posted by MikeCarter at 14:12, 30/8/2008
MikeCarter

Posts: 401
Can someone please help me out with the bit on the Iconbar I wrote and even cited. I think it needs explaining and wording slightly better?

There's a Mac fan boy that deletes anything I write about the Iconbar when ever I put it on.

Edit: Woops forgot the links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_(computing)

My bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dock_(computing)&oldid=213403374

[Edited by MikeCarter at 14:17, 30/8/2008]
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108196, posted by Phlamethrower at 14:29, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108195
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
Well, like he says, the iconbar isn't a dock, is it?

The dock is a mashup between an application launcher and task switcher. The dock contains icons for programs which both are and aren't running.

The iconbar, on the other hand, only ever contains icons for programs that are running (unless you were to write some dock-like utility that lets you launch programs by clicking individual icons on the iconbar). It's also usually useless as a task switcher, since most document-oriented programs will start a new document when you click their iconbar icon instead of bringing to the front all the existing windows of that program.

Also if you look at the OS X dock article it looks like the dock was an idea borrowed from NeXTSTEP, not Arthur/RISC OS. NeXTSTEP seems to have been around (in preview form at least) since 1986, so far before Arthur.

Maybe you should start a 'Bar-shaped GUI OS components that exist at the edge of the screen and allow listing and control over the running processes' article where the dock, iconbar, taskbar, and any other similar features can be lumped together without fear of obvious dissimilarities being pointed out and causing offending items deleted.
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VinceH Message #108197, posted by VincceH at 16:52, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108196
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
The iconbar, on the other hand, only ever contains icons for programs that are running
Umm... AddTinyDir ?

Dunno when that was first introduced (RISC OS 3?) but it basically puts any direcory (or file?) on the LHS of the icon bar as a shortcut (and for an app, its icon is used). Isn't that, in essence, "docking" an item on the bar?

As far as this guy that keeps deleting Mike's edits, one of his justifications for doing so is "Oh by the way, this article is about the Mac OS X dock" - but surely it isn't. It's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_(Mac_OS_X) which is about the Max OS X Dock specifically.

Or was that done after he made that comment? I can't be bothered to check.
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Stephen Robinson Message #108198, posted by steviebaby at 17:18, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108197
Member
Posts: 24
Just checked the Dock(computing) page, and there's no mention what-so-eva about RISCOS, fanboi's are such a pain aren't they? Mac one, doubly so.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108199, posted by Phlamethrower at 19:36, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108197
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
Umm... AddTinyDir ?
OK, so there is that. But it still doesn't make the iconbar into a dock, since it still lacks the task switching ability, and it contains several extra features which the dock doesn't, like the mode & switcher icons for controlling the computer.

Or was that done after he made that comment? I can't be bothered to check.
"moved Dock (computing) to Dock (Mac OS X): Since this article is almost completely about the Mac OS X dock, moving to more appropriate title"

I.e. Dock (computing) was the original article, but since it was 99% about OS X he started a seperate article just for the OS X dock.
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Jason Tribbeck Message #108200, posted by tribbles at 20:07, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108199
tribbles
Captain Helix

Posts: 929
I wrote a program called !Guest in about '92 that had all your applications on the icon bar, and when you clicked on it, or dragged a file on it, it opened the program up, and sent it the file (or click).

I showed an Amiga friend of mine who knew a little about RISC OS, and he saw all the applications "loaded", and said "How much memory do you have in that!"
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Mark Message #108203, posted by Mark76 at 23:43, 30/8/2008, in reply to message #108200
Mark76

Posts: 122
That sounds like a dock to me.
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Jason Tribbeck Message #108204, posted by tribbles at 00:51, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108203
tribbles
Captain Helix

Posts: 929
Yes, I realised how similar it was to the Mac OS dock while I was writing that forum post - I'd never thought of it beforehand.

Maybe I invented the dock without realising it? smile
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Mark Message #108205, posted by Mark76 at 06:07, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108204
Mark76

Posts: 122
Did you ever put it on general release?

I don't think it counts if the only person who ever used it is the author (and his mates).
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VinceH Message #108206, posted by VincceH at 11:46, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108199
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
<rant size=mini>
Umm... AddTinyDir ?
OK, so there is that. But it still doesn't make the iconbar into a dock, since it still lacks the task switching ability,
Oh, right, so to be called a "dock" it has to do more than be a "dock" in that it must allow you to do more than just "dock" stuff to it?

and it contains several extra features which the dock doesn't, like the mode & switcher icons for controlling the computer.
But, on the other hand, if it does more than allow you to "dock" stuff to it, then it isn't a "dock" ? Because it's a different superset of "docking" stuff to it than the superset provided by one specific "dock" ?

Anyway, if memory serves... (checks...) yes, the guy said "Show us a source that actually says the Iconbar behaved in a similar way to the Dock i.e. that you could "dock" items to it."

Well there you go then. AddTinyDirs allows you to "dock" items to it. There's no mention in his request that those items have to specifically be open windows or loaded documents, no mention of task switchers or sack twitchers, only the ability to dock items to the icon bar - which is very precisely what what AddTinyDirs does.

I.e. Dock (computing) was the original article, but since it was 99% about OS X he started a seperate article just for the OS X dock.
In other words, he realised the idiocy of having an article about a specific implementation under a general heading, and dismissing other implementations.
</rant>

Mike - point out to the arsewipe the presence of the AddTinyDir command, and as for online references to it:

http://acorn.riscos.com/riscos3/37/37DiscImage/Tutorials/StarComms

http://everything2.com/title/RISC%2520OS%2520star%2520commands

http://wss.co.uk/pinknoise/Docs/Arc/Switcher/SaveDesk.html

(This last document discusses the requirements for saving the desktop state, but is dated late '89 and mentions the AddTinyDir command)

Oh, and there's this discussion as well. tongue
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108207, posted by Phlamethrower at 12:23, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108206
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
Oh, right, so to be called a "dock" it has to do more than be a "dock" in that it must allow you to do more than just "dock" stuff to it?
How am I supposed to know? Wikipedia doesn't actually explain what a dock is, and that's my primary source of research info tongue

Anyway, if memory serves... (checks...) yes, the guy said "Show us a source that actually says the Iconbar behaved in a similar way to the Dock i.e. that you could "dock" items to it."

Well there you go then. AddTinyDirs allows you to "dock" items to it. There's no mention in his request that those items have to specifically be open windows or loaded documents, no mention of task switchers or sack twitchers, only the ability to dock items to the icon bar - which is very precisely what what AddTinyDirs does.
Yes, he did ask for that. So if Mike wanted he could try reinstating his bit. But personally I don't think we should be associating the mighty iconbar with the inferior Mac dock tongue
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VinceH Message #108208, posted by VincceH at 13:07, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108207
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589

Yes, he did ask for that. So if Mike wanted he could try reinstating his bit. But personally I don't think we should be associating the mighty iconbar with the inferior Mac dock tongue
Perhaps he could also consider creating en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon_bar_(RISC_OS) and link to it on the Dock page in the way that the Max OS X Dock is now linked.

It would also be a good idea to link to it from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS

On which page, incidentally, it's "iconbar" rather than "icon bar"* - I always use a space, but that could be The Icon Bar influencing me. wink

<looks in Style Guide>

Nope, The Icon Bar has it right - throughout the Style Guide it's referred to as the "icon bar".

* So there's another reference - one which, incidentally, mentions it as a forerunner to the Mac OS X Dock.
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VinceH Message #108209, posted by VincceH at 14:29, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108208
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
I've created a rudimentary page as a user subpage at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:VinceHudd/Icon_bar_(RISC_OS) - if Mike or anyone else wishes to expand on what I've put there, that would be handy (because I don't have the time), and once it's more complete it can be moved out to the location suggested above.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108210, posted by Phlamethrower at 14:42, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108209
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
I've created a rudimentary page as a user subpage at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:VinceHudd/Icon_bar_(RISC_OS) - if Mike or anyone else wishes to expand on what I've put there, that would be handy (because I don't have the time), and once it's more complete it can be moved out to the location suggested above.
Ah-ha! Someones wikipedia account I can use to further my plans for world domination. (I, of course, am too busy/lazy/apathetic to be bothered having my own account)

I'll have a look at it later on tonight and see if there's anything I can think of to improve it.
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VinceH Message #108211, posted by VincceH at 16:34, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108210
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
I've just made a couple of other minor edits (mainly just wording improvements) and was going to upload a screenshot I've taken of my icon bar with a selection of apps running - and a few directories added with AddTinyDirs - but I apparently can't upload images (yet).

Edit: I've attached the image to this if anyone who already has an account can do the business. (Or they can upload their own screenshot if they have one).

Edit 2: Splitting it in half and representing the LHS and RHS separately might not be a bad idea.

[Edited by VincceH at 16:35, 31/8/2008]

[Edited by VincceH at 16:36, 31/8/2008]
iconbar.jpeg 1440x67 26.6KB
iconbar.jpeg
1440x67
26.6KB

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Jeffrey Lee Message #108212, posted by Phlamethrower at 16:51, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108211
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
Yeah, 1440 pixels is probably a bit wide to use as an example.

I can easily provide screenshots from Arthur/RISC OS 2/3/3.7/5. And at lower resolutions so it doesn't break wikipedia wink

[edit]

List of things that I'll add to the article if noone gets there before me:

* More detailed breakdown of what's on the icon bar - filing systems, Apps folder, the other bits that go on the left, applications on the right, desktop/computer control on far right (mode/switcher icons)
* Emphasize how the icon bar is different from other bar-shaped things in other OSes. E.g. although it shows the running programs it's used for basic control over them rather than task switching.
* Probably mention how it's often mentioned that the icon bar is the predecessor to the taskbar/dock, even though there's no proof that MS/Apple copied RISC OS.

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 17:01, 31/8/2008]
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Mark Message #108213, posted by Mark76 at 18:21, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108212
Mark76

Posts: 122
Other than the story about Bill Gates seeing it on an A410 and saying: " I'll ave that", you mean?
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Mark Message #108214, posted by Mark76 at 18:28, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108209
Mark76

Posts: 122
I've created a rudimentary page as a user subpage at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:VinceHudd/Icon_bar_(RISC_OS) - if Mike or anyone else wishes to expand on what I've put there, that would be handy (because I don't have the time), and once it's more complete it can be moved out to the location suggested above.

The icon bar is a fundamental feature of the graphical user interface of Acorn Computers' RISC OS operating system. It provides access to all parts of the computer that a typical user will require, and will typically be the users' starting point for using the computer once it has fully started.
There's quite a lot of repetition of "users" in that paragraph. Perhaps "interacting with" rather than "using" might help to make it a little less so.
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VinceH Message #108215, posted by VincceH at 18:39, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108214
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
I've now changed that paragraph to:

The icon bar is a fundamental feature of the [[graphical user interface]] of [[Acorn Computers]]' [[RISC OS]] [[operating system]]. It provides access to all parts of the [[computer]] that a typical user will require, and will typically be their starting point for interacting with the computer once it has finished booting.
Or I will have, once it allows me to save the changes. smile
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108216, posted by Phlamethrower at 19:08, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108213
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
Other than the story about Bill Gates seeing it on an A410 and saying: " I'll ave that", you mean?
Citation needed smile
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Mark Message #108217, posted by Mark76 at 19:19, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108216
Mark76

Posts: 122
I'd be only too happy to if I could remember where I saw it unhappy
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John Hoare Message #108218, posted by moss at 19:34, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108217

Posts: 9346
I remember reading the story in Acorn User. Couldn't tell you which one - or, indeed, whether it was sourced properly even then.
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Mark Message #108219, posted by Mark76 at 19:37, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108218
Mark76

Posts: 122
Gates definitely knew of Acorn since he tried to sell them MSDOS. And, being the ubergeek he is, it's completely within the realms of plausibility that he might have had a play on an Archie at some point.

[Edited by Mark76 at 19:38, 31/8/2008]
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Jason Tribbeck Message #108220, posted by tribbles at 23:41, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108205
tribbles
Captain Helix

Posts: 929
Did you ever put it on general release?

I don't think it counts if the only person who ever used it is the author (and his mates).
I know - I can't find any reference to it on the Internet - unfortuately, "!Guest" isn't really an easily unique thing to search for...

I have found it on my system - version 2.00 was written in May 1994, and written in 100% ARM assembly (must've been before I learnt to write applications in C).
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Jason Tribbeck Message #108221, posted by tribbles at 23:50, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108220
tribbles
Captain Helix

Posts: 929
Hmm - odd - I found version 0.27, which /was/ written in 1992 - and, surprisingly, in C.

I think the 1994 rewrite was to use a module to reduce its footprint.

Anyway, it [0.27], along with its source (not terribly well laid out - I wasn't that bothered about those kind of things until 1995) is available from http://www.tribbeck.com/software/guest/guest.zip

In order to get it working for you, you'll need to delete the "Defaults" file inside it - it stores the locations of applications that it is aware of it.

Since there's no manual, simply drop an application on it and it'll create the application's icon on the icon bar. You can then press MENU on it to configure how it responds to clicks and so forth (it's default mode of operation is to simply load the application and keep Guest's own copy of the icon on the icon bar, but that can be changed).

I'm actually surprised it still works - it was written for RISC OS 2; there wasn't the capability to rearrange the icon positions then (so the application, when loaded, will always be the left-most icon on the icon bar).
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Jason Tribbeck Message #108222, posted by tribbles at 23:56, 31/8/2008, in reply to message #108221
tribbles
Captain Helix

Posts: 929
Another hmm - the date for c.!RunImage and the !RunImage application itself is 1994, but there's two older versions of the source for !RunImage (c.!RunImage2 and c.!RunImageO). I think I may have recompiled it in 1994 to make sure it still worked as a prelude to rewriting it...

Unfortunately at this moment in time, it's the only evidence I've got...
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Peter Howkins Message #108223, posted by flibble at 00:17, 1/9/2008, in reply to message #108219
flibble

Posts: 865
Gates definitely knew of Acorn since he tried to sell them MSDOS.
"Citation needed"

And, being the ubergeek he is
"Neutral point of view"

it's completely within the realms of plausibility that he might have had a play on an Archie at some point.
"No original research"


big grin (gonna get slapped)
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108224, posted by Phlamethrower at 00:26, 1/9/2008, in reply to message #108223
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
After much rewriting and rewording I've added my bit to the article. That doesn't mean I've finished poking it, of course, since some bits aren't as clear as I'd like. Also I suspect there are various wiki style guide rules that I've broken, so I'll leave that to you to fix (presumably you know more about them than me, since you've got an account smile)

I'm particularly pleased that I added a mention of the desktop boot file saving - not only did RISC OS invent the task bar/dock, but it also invented hibernation! (citation needed)

Also here's a bonus shot of the RISC OS 3 icon bar.

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 00:27, 1/9/2008]
os3.png 640x67 1.8KB
os3.png
640x67
1.8KB

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VinceH Message #108226, posted by VincceH at 08:47, 1/9/2008, in reply to message #108224
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
After much rewriting and rewording I've added my bit to the article. That doesn't mean I've finished poking it, of course, since some bits aren't as clear as I'd like.
<Takes a peek>

Cor blimey. I don't think even Acorn wrote that much about the icon bar in any of their documentation. I'll read through it in a while.

Also I suspect there are various wiki style guide rules that I've broken, so I'll leave that to you to fix (presumably you know more about them than me, since you've got an account smile)
I only set the account up yesterday (which is why I can't upload pictures yet - I think I'll be able to by the end of the week), so I've only had a quick read of the various guidelines. When I read through your expanded article, I'll give the various guidelines another read through as well just to be sure. But I think as long as there's nothing contentious in there it's probably okay.

I'm particularly pleased that I added a mention of the desktop boot file saving - not only did RISC OS invent the task bar/dock, but it also invented hibernation! (citation needed)
Heh.

Also here's a bonus shot of the RISC OS 3 icon bar.
Tippety top.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #108227, posted by Phlamethrower at 09:33, 1/9/2008, in reply to message #108226
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
After much rewriting and rewording I've added my bit to the article. That doesn't mean I've finished poking it, of course, since some bits aren't as clear as I'd like.
<Takes a peek>

Cor blimey. I don't think even Acorn wrote that much about the icon bar in any of their documentation. I'll read through it in a while.
Your attempt was a bit short when compared to the taskbar & dock pages smile

Here's a shot from RO 5. All the taskbar images on the taskbar page were 800 pixels wide, so if we limit ourselves to that we should be able to include them full-size without any problems.

I seem to have mislaid my Arthur ROM, but Rich has a few shots on houseofmabel that you could probably use. Probably worth adding an image to the Arthur article too.

http://www.houseofmabel.com/puters/

Also if we're doing pre-RISC OS icon bars, wasn't there a program for the BBC that had a windowing environment? Did that have an icon bar? Or am I just thinking about monkeyson's(?) WIMP clone written in BASIC because he was too poor to own an Arc?

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 09:35, 1/9/2008]
os5.png 800x67 40.3KB
os5.png
800x67
40.3KB

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The Icon Bar: General: Dock article on Wikipedia