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The Icon Bar: General: Archive.org and RISCOS material
 
  Archive.org and RISCOS material
  alex_farlie (23:05 19/1/2014)
  davidb (12:08 20/1/2014)
  trevj (10:01 21/1/2014)
    alex_farlie (10:34 21/1/2014)
      davidb (11:23 21/1/2014)
        diodesign (07:11 23/1/2014)
      sirbod (12:32 21/1/2014)
    davidb (11:35 21/1/2014)
    arawnsley (12:12 21/1/2014)
  flibble (10:23 21/1/2014)
  alex_farlie (00:19 23/1/2014)
    davidb (12:23 23/1/2014)
      alex_farlie (13:58 23/1/2014)
  gaula92 (10:01 23/1/2014)
    alex_farlie (13:53 23/1/2014)
  davidb (14:54 23/1/2014)
    alex_farlie (15:06 23/1/2014)
      alex_farlie (15:41 23/1/2014)
        davidb (16:03 23/1/2014)
          alex_farlie (16:25 23/1/2014)
            davidb (19:51 23/1/2014)
              alex_farlie (23:01 23/1/2014)
                davidb (10:40 24/1/2014)
    alex_farlie (16:33 23/1/2014)
      T.O.M.S. (17:42 23/1/2014)
      apdl (08:08 24/1/2014)
        alex_farlie (21:39 24/1/2014)
        alex_farlie (21:44 24/1/2014)
 
Alex Farlie Message #122932, posted by alex_farlie at 23:05, 19/1/2014
Member
Posts: 19
Edit 23rd January:

Having had a very long chat off site with an Internet Archive volunteer, some misunderstandings (on my part) have been cleared up, and in the course of the chat concerns were raised that the above posting (now retracted) was considerably stronger worded than intended.

It seems that I was wrong, and that a misunderstanding as to the status of some the items occurred. For this I'm sorry.

The Internet Archive is a valuable archive, it fully complies with applicable laws. It's archival policy is consistent with best practice.

Let's avoid copyright paranoia people.

On a more positive note, I would fully encourage people with appropriate archive material to 'donate' it, so that as noted in later posting the early history of Acorn, RISC OS and ARM isn't lost in the ether.

My previous comments about 'appropriate' representations are also withdrawn.

Alex Farlie.

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:18, 23/1/2014]

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:19, 23/1/2014]

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:20, 23/1/2014]

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:21, 23/1/2014]

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:22, 23/1/2014]
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David Boddie Message #122935, posted by davidb at 12:08, 20/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
Member
Posts: 147
Take a look at the Terms of Use page. The Copyright Policy near the bottom tells you how to make a complaint.
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Trevor Johnson Message #122936, posted by trevj at 10:01, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
Member
Posts: 660
They've recently publicly announced the availability of 1970s and '80s classics, and I agree that this seems to include an amount of questionable content. But if rights holders don't assert their rights, then such software is often viewed as abandonware.

IMHO it comes down to how realistic it is to claim that consumers will purchase old titles. For instance, 4Mation still sell a version of the original Granny's Garden - but I wonder how many copies they sell at £15.50 each! IANAL but AFAIK anyone who has an actual copy of the original Beeb media can legitimately use a backup copy under an emulator if they wish to do so.

When negotiating conversion licences, etc. BITD I'd expect that sales projections are fairly short-term because of the evolutionary nature of software (especially games) - although perhaps I'm wrong here. If this is the case, is it reasonable to claim such rights so many years on? What is/are the opinion(s) of the original copyright holder(s), and is it reasonable to consider such opinion(s) before deciding whether to take action? And were such rights for the platform granted in perpetuity, in any case?
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Peter Howkins Message #122937, posted by flibble at 10:23, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
flibble

Posts: 889
It would be appreciated if the RISC OS community could make "appropriate" representations to archive.org concerning this.
For the rest of the RISC OS 'community' that aren't that bothered, here are the links to the files before Alex is successful.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Acorn%22
https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22RISC%20OS%22

[Edited by flibble at 10:29, 21/1/2014]
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Alex Farlie Message #122938, posted by alex_farlie at 10:34, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122936
Member
Posts: 19
They've recently publicly announced the availability of 1970s and '80s classics, and I agree that this seems to include an amount of questionable content. But if rights holders don't assert their rights, then such software is often viewed as abandonware.
Abandonware has no status, which is why lesser archive sites with software by the major international players get shut-down on a regular cycle.

Projects like JASPP are being cautious with good reason.
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David Boddie Message #122939, posted by davidb at 11:23, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122938
Member
Posts: 147
They've recently publicly announced the availability of 1970s and '80s classics, and I agree that this seems to include an amount of questionable content. But if rights holders don't assert their rights, then such software is often viewed as abandonware.
Abandonware has no status, which is why lesser archive sites with software by the major international players get shut-down on a regular cycle.

Projects like JASPP are being cautious with good reason.
I think it's good that JASPP is being cautious but it's useful to mention that the Internet Archive has a mission to operate as a library, and I think that may afford it some latitude when it comes to making content available. That said, I believe they will remove things from the collections if people complain that they shouldn't be there.

I'm glad that there are at least copies of some Acorn 32-bit materials held somewhere where there's an emphasis on digital preservation.
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David Boddie Message #122940, posted by davidb at 11:35, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122936
Member
Posts: 147
When negotiating conversion licences, etc. BITD I'd expect that sales projections are fairly short-term because of the evolutionary nature of software (especially games) - although perhaps I'm wrong here. If this is the case, is it reasonable to claim such rights so many years on? What is/are the opinion(s) of the original copyright holder(s), and is it reasonable to consider such opinion(s) before deciding whether to take action? And were such rights for the platform granted in perpetuity, in any case?
I wonder about issues like that. Did JASPP have to get the original publishers to sign off on the republication of those ports or was it enough to get Krisalis (for example) to do so?

A few months ago I scanned some old documents related to a piece of educational software I worked on. I was surprised to see that the copyright is jointly held between me and the other two parties involved. It was surprising because I can't imagine that the terms for a project like that now would give any rights to someone working purely as a developer for hire.
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Andrew Rawnsley Message #122941, posted by arawnsley at 12:12, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122936
R-Comp chap
Posts: 578
Older products definately do sell, esp on Windows, if they have an established market. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Granny's Garden still sold. The Windows version of TouchType pays for a lot of our RISC OS development, for example!

As for releasing older games, I know that for the Krisalis titles, we did a fair bit of checking and only released full copies of things we were approved for. For other things, we released updates to ensure they worked on newer kit, but stopped short of including full copies of originals.

Now, this was almost certainly paranoia, but at the time, things like Lemmings were being released on handhelds and the like, so we figured we should be careful.

I'd imagine JASPP will have similar thoughts, as they seem to be handling everything with care and due reverence - impressive stuff smile
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Jon Abbott Message #122942, posted by sirbod at 12:32, 21/1/2014, in reply to message #122938
Member
Posts: 563
Projects like JASPP are being cautious with good reason.
The project complies with current legislation which at the time of writing are the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 and Digital Economy Act 2010. Neither allow copyright material to be used without permission of the copyright holder. Software released by the project has either been licensed or permission given by the copyright holder(s) for their material to be released for non-commercial use.


The Digital Economy Act 2010 was to include an amendment to section 43 allowing orphaned works to be made available, this however was dropped in its final session. There is currently no UK legislation covering orphaned works (aka Abandonware) and as such it falls under general copyright law.

In the USA the Digital Millennium Copyright Act is generally perceived by the public to allow material to be made available until such time as the copyright holder makes a formal complaint. Note that it doesn't explicitly cover orphaned works or make it legally acceptable to use copyrighted material, it does however put the onus on the copyright holder to assert their copyright.
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Alex Farlie Message #122944, posted by alex_farlie at 00:19, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
Member
Posts: 19
Thank you..

Of course if there a people here that are OK with their RISC OS content being preserved, I'm sure others in this thread be willing to assist.
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Chris Williams Message #122945, posted by diodesign at 07:11, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122939
diodesign
The Opposition

Posts: 269
it's useful to mention that the Internet Archive has a mission to operate as a library
I can't, personally, stress this enough. Although the ARM architecture is taking over the world right now, the RISC OS side of Acorn won't even make a footnote in the history books if we insist on purging all traces of it from the greatest public record of all: the Internet.

The CDs available for download are a perfect, quaint snapshot of RISC OS life at the time. It would be a shame to tear them down after they became commercially inert.

Just my $0.02.

C.


[Edited by diodesign at 07:17, 23/1/2014]
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Seņor Nueces Message #122946, posted by gaula92 at 10:01, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
Member
Posts: 43
Concerned about 20 years old software... This is why Risc OS will never catch up with Linux or even Amiga OS. Paranoid users who are stupid enough to be charged for abandoned software and be proud of it.
Ridiculous. I hope the people at archive.org laugh at you strong and loud.
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David Boddie Message #122947, posted by davidb at 12:23, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122944
Member
Posts: 147
Of course if there a people here that are OK with their RISC OS content being preserved, I'm sure others in this thread be willing to assist.
Text isn't always a great way of expressing the nuances of intent, so I can't tell whether you're being sincere or if there's more than a trace of sarcasm in there.

In any case, I'm absolutely willing to help people preserve their RISC OS content, or even pre-RISC OS content. There's a good chance that much of the early Acorn 32-bit history has already been lost or made inaccessible and people need to archive what they can now, even if they're not able to share it with the world just yet.
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Alex Farlie Message #122948, posted by alex_farlie at 13:53, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122946
Member
Posts: 19
{Removed on off-site advice.}

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:27, 23/1/2014]
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Alex Farlie Message #122949, posted by alex_farlie at 13:58, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122947
Member
Posts: 19
Of course if there a people here that are OK with their RISC OS content being preserved, I'm sure others in this thread be willing to assist.
Text isn't always a great way of expressing the nuances of intent, so I can't tell whether you're being sincere or if there's more than a trace of sarcasm in there.

In any case, I'm absolutely willing to help people preserve their RISC OS content, or even pre-RISC OS content. There's a good chance that much of the early Acorn 32-bit history has already been lost or made inaccessible and people need to archive what they can now, even if they're not able to share it with the world just yet.
That was sincere, Someone that volunteers at archive.org decided to have a long private chat with me about their objectives.

I've now changed my views on this and the original posting has been retracted (see above.)

[Edited by alex_farlie at 14:25, 23/1/2014]
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David Boddie Message #122950, posted by davidb at 14:54, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122932
Member
Posts: 147
No hard feelings, Alex. smile Maybe we can use this as an opportunity to start thinking about ways we can save some of our software history. Perhaps we should start a list of software that we think should be preserved, if one doesn't already exist.

It might also be good to ensure that the remaining bits of more obscure software, such as dead-end operating systems like ARX and Impulse, are at least securely archived even if there's little chance we'll see them being made publicly available any time soon.
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Alex Farlie Message #122951, posted by alex_farlie at 15:06, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122950
Member
Posts: 19
No hard feelings, Alex. smile Maybe we can use this as an opportunity to start thinking about ways we can save some of our software history. Perhaps we should start a list of software that we think should be preserved, if one doesn't already exist.

It might also be good to ensure that the remaining bits of more obscure software, such as dead-end operating systems like ARX and Impulse, are at least securely archived even if there's little chance we'll see them being made publicly available any time soon.
Most online preservation sites i've encoutered are gaming related.

What happens to old education software and applications?

These are some commerical titles I can recall from MicroUser reviews. (No idea on current status)

Sibelius
Tabs (Although Aspex is still active)
Stig of the Dump
!Jiglet (Was this a 4mation title?)
RenderBender

The number of abandoned PD and shareware apps is probably very large indeed.



I note the archive.org collection has the Replay CD, which as far as I know isn't archived anywhere else at the moment.

I'll have a look through Micro user back issues...
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Alex Farlie Message #122952, posted by alex_farlie at 15:41, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122951
Member
Posts: 19

I'll have a look through Micro user back issues...
Reviewed in MicroUser (July 89/Sep 89)
Ancestry,Minerva
Family History System, Micro Aid
Art Nouveau, CAL
RiscForth,Silicon Vision
Geoscan, Paaskey Marketing.
Keyword, Swift Software
Ibix The Viking, Minerva
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David Boddie Message #122953, posted by davidb at 16:03, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122952
Member
Posts: 147
There must be lists of this stuff already. Mind you, having said that, the Wikipedia category page for RISC OS software is a bit sparse.

Other than JASPP, I believe there are sites out there with games for RISC OS systems, though I wouldn't want to rely on the disk images you would find there. I expect the same can be said of some of the more popular productivity software, but perhaps not for educational titles.

CJE might have a comprehensive list of software that could be used as the basis for a preservation checklist.

Thinking about it further, there was a RISC OS Products Directory hosted on riscos.com but it's now only available via the Wayback Machine.

[Edited by davidb at 18:27, 23/1/2014]
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Alex Farlie Message #122954, posted by alex_farlie at 16:25, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122953
Member
Posts: 19
(on a side note)
In respect of Sibelius http://www.sibeliususers.org/?ref=stream
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Alex Farlie Message #122955, posted by alex_farlie at 16:33, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122950
Member
Posts: 19
BTW Does anyone have an image copy of the Impression Junior freeware formerly available from Computer Concepts?

Alternatively does someone have an Impression import filter for modern systems?
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T.O.M.S. Message #122956, posted by T.O.M.S. at 17:42, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122955
Member
Posts: 11
> Alternatively does someone have an Impression
> import filter for modern systems?

Ovation Pro for both RISC OS and Windows has a TransImp import filter for Impression docs.

I haven't used the filter for a while but IIRC, OPro makes an extremely good fist of it, depending on the complexity of the Imp doc. First impressions may not impress (sorry...), but a modicum of re-flowing the text will usually sort that out. Also IIRC, Opro will convert text effects in Imp into 'proper' OPro styles, which can be a big help. Line and frame/border widths usually need re-working however. HTH.

[Edited by T.O.M.S. at 17:43, 23/1/2014]
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David Boddie Message #122958, posted by davidb at 19:51, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122954
Member
Posts: 147
(on a side note)
In respect of Sibelius http://www.sibeliususers.org/?ref=stream
Yes, I approached a couple of users to offer help trying to understand the file format, but one of them didn't really understand what I was talking about and the other thought I was looking for a cracked Windows version. unhappy

The main protagonists in that saga seemed to be pacified when the development team were hired to work on a new notation package, which to me indicated that they hadn't really learned any lessons from their experience.
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Alex Farlie Message #122964, posted by alex_farlie at 23:01, 23/1/2014, in reply to message #122958
Member
Posts: 19
Do you still have the file format documentation?

It might be worth an Icon Bar forum posting at the very least.
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David Holden Message #122965, posted by apdl at 08:08, 24/1/2014, in reply to message #122955
Member
Posts: 138
BTW Does anyone have an image copy of the Impression Junior freeware formerly available from Computer Concepts?
It's in the obvious place in PD library on the APDL website.
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David Boddie Message #122966, posted by davidb at 10:40, 24/1/2014, in reply to message #122964
Member
Posts: 147
Do you still have the file format documentation?

It might be worth an Icon Bar forum posting at the very least.
I only made a slight amount of progress with the RISC OS version, which wasn't useful for anyone stuck with the Windows version. I wrote up a short summary on the Archive Team File Formats Wiki.
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Alex Farlie Message #122969, posted by alex_farlie at 21:39, 24/1/2014, in reply to message #122965
Member
Posts: 19
BTW Does anyone have an image copy of the Impression Junior freeware formerly available from Computer Concepts?
It's in the obvious place in PD library on the APDL website.
Thanks, and I appreciate your past comments about archiving.
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Alex Farlie Message #122970, posted by alex_farlie at 21:44, 24/1/2014, in reply to message #122965
Member
Posts: 19
{duplicate}

[Edited by alex_farlie at 22:46, 24/1/2014]
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The Icon Bar: General: Archive.org and RISCOS material