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The Icon Bar: News and features: NetSurf reaches version 3.10
 

NetSurf reaches version 3.10

Posted by Mark Stephens on 08:48, 5/6/2020 |
 
If you have been busy watching the new browsers Iris and OWB develop for RISC OS, you may have forgotten about NetSurf. This started life on RISC OS and is now multi-platform (with versions for Windows and Linux as well as Haiku, Amiga, and Atari. The last big release was July 2019.

NetSurf should run on any RISC OS 4,5 or 6 machine and includes all the required System libraries. If you already have an older version, it is a simple drag and drop replacement.
 
The RISC OS specific version adds a new Page Info URL bar icon and window, better scaling, and moves several items of functionality into the core where it is likely to be better supported.
 
Overall this release adds some minor HTML updates, lots of refactoring, minor improvements and fixes. It also moves the JavaScript library used to Duktape 2.4.0
 
I gave it a quick spin on my Titanium and it remains a fast, and stable browser. I still found JavaScript support to still be partial, so you will still need Iris and OWB for these types of sites.
 
It is great to see NetSurf continue to evolve and it definitely deserves a space on your Icon Bar.
 
NetSurf website
 
  NetSurf reaches version 3.10
  nunfetishist (11:06 5/6/2020)
  markee174 (13:05 5/6/2020)
  arawnsley (15:31 5/6/2020)
    Bucksboy (08:32 6/6/2020)
      Cloverleaf (09:18 11/6/2020)
        nunfetishist (11:34 11/6/2020)
          Cloverleaf (08:03 26/6/2020)
            nunfetishist (10:36 26/6/2020)
              helpful (14:09 26/6/2020)
                markee174 (14:18 26/6/2020)
              Cloverleaf (08:44 27/6/2020)
                nunfetishist (11:11 27/6/2020)
                  Cloverleaf (09:59 17/8/2020)
                    nunfetishist (13:54 17/8/2020)
                    tlsa (16:46 17/8/2020)
    nunfetishist (10:07 6/6/2020)
      arawnsley (10:37 6/6/2020)
  Elesar (08:41 6/6/2020)
 
Rob Kendrick Message #124866, posted by nunfetishist at 11:06, 5/6/2020
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
Thanks for the news article!

Two corrections: s/Netsurf/NetSurf/ (throughout) and s/lightly/likely/
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Mark Stephens Message #124867, posted by markee174 at 13:05, 5/6/2020, in reply to message #124866
Member
Posts: 84
Done. Thanks for spotting.
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Andrew Rawnsley Message #124868, posted by arawnsley at 15:31, 5/6/2020, in reply to message #124866
R-Comp chap
Posts: 539
This isn't meant as a criticism, but rather as a "trying to understand...".

Ever since NS 3 (I think), each version has announced improved JS via updates to Duktape etc. However, I haven't knowingly seen it ever actually *do* anything JS-wise (the option is turned on).

Am I right in thinking that it doesn't actually interact with any page elements, so is only useful for (effectively) determining a path of (noscript) vs (script) on sites which offer a choice? In other words, it'll execute code but will output to NULL for everything, but won't go the (noscript) route?

Or have I completely misunderstood what it is doing, and how to activate/use it?

I ask because duktape 2.4 seems quite capable as a JS engine, and Netsurf has a pretty nice DOM implementation, but I've never (knowingly) seen the two working together.

[Edited by arawnsley at 15:33, 5/6/2020]
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George Greenfield Message #124869, posted by Bucksboy at 08:32, 6/6/2020, in reply to message #124868
Member
Posts: 74
I ‘m with Andrew here (likewise mystified): I upgraded to 3.10 a few days ago and immediately activated and tested the JS option (as I generally do with each new version), but AFAICS, as before, JS remains completely non operational. Does it work on other platforms I wonder?

[Edited by Bucksboy at 08:34, 6/6/2020]
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Robert Sprowson Message #124870, posted by Elesar at 08:41, 6/6/2020, in reply to message #124866
Member
Posts: 20
Thanks for the news article!
I was poised to submit a bug report for a redraw problem at the top of the hotlist window, but now I rubbed my eyes I see it's gained a search facility (hence white background). Nice touch & great work on 3.10 - thanks.
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Rob Kendrick Message #124871, posted by nunfetishist at 10:07, 6/6/2020, in reply to message #124868
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
This isn't meant as a criticism, but rather as a "trying to understand...".

Ever since NS 3 (I think), each version has announced improved JS via updates to Duktape etc. However, I haven't knowingly seen it ever actually *do* anything JS-wise (the option is turned on).

Am I right in thinking that it doesn't actually interact with any page elements, so is only useful for (effectively) determining a path of (noscript) vs (script) on sites which offer a choice? In other words, it'll execute code but will output to NULL for everything, but won't go the (noscript) route?

Or have I completely misunderstood what it is doing, and how to activate/use it?
Try https://www.rjek.com/js/life.html (on a fast machine). Things like document.write inline etc, work. Hundreds and hundreds of DOM objects are exposed to it. But most websites these days just use jQuery, and you basically need everything working for anything to work with jQuery.

Problems are: there's a lot of code to write linking up our DOM to Duktape and none of it is fun to write (we all have day jobs and lives), our layout engine isn't very dynamic so can't re-layout on DOM change yet.

Here is an example of the code to bind the JavaScript Window object: http://git.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf.git/tree/content/handlers/javascript/duktape/Window.bnd#n305 - There's a lot of it.

Various Document object methods, including writeln, getElementById, etc: http://git.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf.git/tree/content/handlers/javascript/duktape/Document.bnd#n59

These all work. But if you try to change an element from JavaScript there is currently no mechanism to dynamically update just the effected parts of the box tree, requiring the entire document to be reflowed.

The source is there, the source is clean and good-quality, it's easy to build (if you have a Linux box), any C programmer with any level of knowledge of any of HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and RISC OS can easily get stuck in and help.
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Andrew Rawnsley Message #124872, posted by arawnsley at 10:37, 6/6/2020, in reply to message #124871
R-Comp chap
Posts: 539
Thanks Rob - that's impressive progress over 3.9 then - your demo certainly works, and well!
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Stefan Fröhling Message #124877, posted by Cloverleaf at 09:18, 11/6/2020, in reply to message #124869
Member
Posts: 4
It might be effective to address some specific Javascript features to improve the performance of Netscape. For example what doesn't work is to open the menu on our website. That is an essential part of a web page. Look at our site www.riscoscloverleaf.com . The top menu icon doesn't work with Netscape but with the Otter-browser.
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Rob Kendrick Message #124878, posted by nunfetishist at 11:34, 11/6/2020, in reply to message #124877
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
It might be effective to address some specific Javascript features to improve the performance of Netscape. For example what doesn't work is to open the menu on our website. That is an essential part of a web page. Look at our site <a href="http://www.riscoscloverleaf.com">www.riscoscloverleaf.com</a> . The top menu icon doesn't work with Netscape but with the Otter-browser.
I think you mean NetSurf. Please see reply to Andrew: Patches welcome.
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Stefan Fröhling Message #124890, posted by Cloverleaf at 08:03, 26/6/2020, in reply to message #124878
Member
Posts: 4
Well we could help for complete NetSurf if the new browser from RISCOS Dev Ltd. doesn't cover all aspects.

Other question: Why Netsurf shows mobile version of websites? Possibly because they are easier to display?

Could you optimize the Save dialog for downloaded files as it doesn't look at all like you need to drag the icon to save it somewhere. Maybe just a title "Save file" would help a lot.

I had to google it where the downloaded file can be found. Finally I found a post from 2013 (!) that had the same problem. Well you cannot find any file because it is not saved. big smile
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Rob Kendrick Message #124891, posted by nunfetishist at 10:36, 26/6/2020, in reply to message #124890
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
Other question: Why Netsurf shows mobile version of websites? Possibly because they are easier to display?
Probably because the website in question sees "ARM" in the User-Agent header and presumes it is a mobile phone. NetSurf does not explicitly request the mobile site.

Could you optimize the Save dialog for downloaded files as it doesn't look at all like you need to drag the icon to save it somewhere. Maybe just a title "Save file" would help a lot.
I'm not sure what you mean. When you start a download, it starts immediately to !Scrap, you drag the icon from the window that appears to where you want to save it as you would any other RISC OS save dialogue.

We don't currently have a developer working on the RISC OS front end, it hasn't really changed in some time. If somebody wants to be involved, we would welcome it!
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Bryan Hogan Message #124893, posted by helpful at 14:09, 26/6/2020, in reply to message #124891
Member
Posts: 208
Probably because the website in question sees "ARM" in the User-Agent header and presumes it is a mobile phone.
Well Apple's move to ARM should put a stop to that sort of annoying nonsense!
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Mark Stephens Message #124894, posted by markee174 at 14:18, 26/6/2020, in reply to message #124893
Member
Posts: 84
Probably because the website in question sees "ARM" in the User-Agent header and presumes it is a mobile phone.
Well Apple's move to ARM should put a stop to that sort of annoying nonsense!
Apple Silicon!
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Stefan Fröhling Message #124896, posted by Cloverleaf at 08:44, 27/6/2020, in reply to message #124891
Member
Posts: 4
Dear Rob,
about the download of files: Yes if you know how it works then the handling is no issue anymore.

about mobile or PC version of the website: My programmer found that the reason the mobile page is shown is not the User-agent header but the width of the window. And for unknow reason that is always very narrow in the RISCOS version of NetSurf. Maybe reason is that older Acorn hardware has not so big resolutions.
Sadly the PC version of our website also doesn't show the menu in NetSurf...

Our website is built with Worldpress as we don't target mainly current RISCOS user but want to open up new markets for RISCOS.

If we have some free time we will have a look into the user interface of RISCOS Netsurf.
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Rob Kendrick Message #124897, posted by nunfetishist at 11:11, 27/6/2020, in reply to message #124896
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
about mobile or PC version of the website: My programmer found that the reason the mobile page is shown is not the User-agent header but the width of the window. And for unknow reason that is always very narrow in the RISCOS version of NetSurf. Maybe reason is that older Acorn hardware has not so big resolutions.
Sadly the PC version of our website also doesn't show the menu in NetSurf...

Our website is built with Worldpress as we don't target mainly current RISCOS user but want to open up new markets for RISCOS.
Even with JavaScript off? tbh it sounds like it's as likely to be a bug in the website as in NetSurf. Wordpress is pretty terrible, after all smile
If we have some free time we will have a look into the user interface of RISCOS Netsurf.
We look forward to it!
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Stefan Fröhling Message #124930, posted by Cloverleaf at 09:59, 17/8/2020, in reply to message #124897
Member
Posts: 4
My programmer Alexey is ready now to do some changes in Netsurf. Is there anything that needs to be done in handling improvement? For example:
1. add scroll wheel support.
2. Change the icons in the tool bar.
3. Add mouse selection in the address bar.

About Javascript improvements I am not sure how many days, weeks or month full time work that would need.
As the new RISC Dev browser should be available soon I think we better spend our work force on other topics.
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Rob Kendrick Message #124931, posted by nunfetishist at 13:54, 17/8/2020, in reply to message #124930
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 513
My programmer Alexey is ready now to do some changes in Netsurf. Is there anything that needs to be done in handling improvement? For example:
1. add scroll wheel support.
2. Change the icons in the tool bar.
3. Add mouse selection in the address bar.
I believe 1 and 2 are already there? 3 might be interesting - we have our own text entry widget because of limitations with the RISC OS WIMP one.

Perhaps check on the NetSurf bug tracker to see what there is to do in terms of bugs and wishlists?

Or discuss on the dev mailing list or #netsurf on Freenode.
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Michael Drake Message #124932, posted by tlsa at 16:46, 17/8/2020, in reply to message #124930

Posts: 1096
My programmer Alexey is ready now to do some changes in Netsurf. Is there anything that needs to be done in handling improvement? For example:
1. add scroll wheel support.
2. Change the icons in the tool bar.
3. Add mouse selection in the address bar.
1 and 2 have been supported for years.

3 is up to the wimp. It was supported when running on RISC OS Select, and I believe the latest beta RISC OS 5 supports it, although I've never tried it.
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The Icon Bar: News and features: NetSurf reaches version 3.10