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The Icon Bar: The Playpen: Over the summer V: Oh god not another Rocky movie
 
  Over the summer V: Oh god not another Rocky movie
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79860, posted by Phlamethrower at 18:31, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79478
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
10 minute after he's left, he'll realise what the problem is :P
It didn't work!

Actually, no you won't. If you'd looked at the disassembly, you'd have seen:


...
ldrsh r0,[r4,r0]
...


So, congratulations, you've found yet another bug in AS. :P
I did look at the disassembly, but evidently not directly at the disassembly for the instruction that was causing the problem :P

Anyway, it's all someone else's fault, SO THERE.

:flamethrower: - where are you btw, or rather for how long?
I'm back now!

I see that my cunning plan of getting Adrian to do all my work for me has worked.

Are you taking over development Adrian, or do you want me to do some stuff? (frontend/speed throttling/savegames/sound/etc.)

Or would you rather I tackle the horrible NetSurf text areas? :o
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Michael Drake Message #79869, posted by tlsa at 20:09, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79860

Posts: 1096
:flamethrower:!

Do you mind if I make a web site for PicoDrive?

BTW, micro machines doesn't work yet. I guess it needs some more of the hardware to be emulated or something.

[Edited by tlsa at 20:09, 6/9/2006]
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79870, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:19, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79869
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Do you mind if I make a web site for PicoDrive?
I don't mind. However I think Adrian hasn't released his copy of the source, so he'd be a good person to ask too :)

BTW, micro machines doesn't work yet.
Yes :sniff:

I guess it needs some more of the hardware to be emulated or something.
I think one of the ports-to-other-platforms listed that it had the Z80 emulation working. However the same day that I uploaded my code, I noticed that the PicoDrive website had died. And it still appears to be down now :sniff:
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Michael Drake Message #79871, posted by tlsa at 20:23, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79870

Posts: 1096
http://picodrive.atspace.com/ says "Integrated Reesy's DrZ80 ARM asm Z80 CPU core emulation for full sound compatibility."
:o
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79872, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:27, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79871
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Yeah, that sounds like the one.
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Michael Drake Message #79874, posted by tlsa at 20:30, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79872

Posts: 1096
It looks like we could maybe get a lot of features from

http://picodrive.atspace.com/ and
http://notaz.atspace.com/index.html

They both have Load / Save state support and Z80 emulation. Also cyclone improvements and graphical fixes.

Enabling Z80 in sound settings will improve compatibility (you don't have to enable anything else, only Z80), because some games need it to run. But it slows emulation down, so turn it off if the game doesn't need it and you don't want sound.
Hopefully that's the reason for Micro Machines not working.


[Edited by tlsa at 20:32, 6/9/2006]
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79875, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:35, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79874
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Load/save support is already supported by the emulator, we just don't have any frontend stuff to operate it. Although if there's a cross-emulator savefile format then we'd probably need to examine some other code to get that working.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79876, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:39, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79562
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
plus fixes a couple of APCS violations that :flamethrower: either didn't know about or hoped he could get away with ;)
What were these, anyway?
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Michael Drake Message #79877, posted by tlsa at 20:43, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79875

Posts: 1096
Load/save support is already supported by the emulator, we just don't have any frontend stuff to operate it. Although if there's a cross-emulator savefile format then we'd probably need to examine some other code to get that working.
Oh, OK, great! I'll be able to play the Phantasy Star games!
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Michael Drake Message #79878, posted by tlsa at 20:45, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79874

Posts: 1096
http://picodrive.atspace.com/ and
http://notaz.atspace.com/index.html
Adrian's pointed out that these sites don't have source. :sniff:
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79879, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:51, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79878
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Well, all we need to do is provide appropriate pokeage to the authors.
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Michael Drake Message #79880, posted by tlsa at 20:57, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79860

Posts: 1096
Here's some stuff from e-mails, :flamethrower:

Vauge priorety list:
Emulation stuff:

1. Saving progress (needed for RPGs and some action games like Sonic 3
support saving on the cartridge)
2. Z80 Emulation
3. Sound generator thing
4. Support for the other joypad buttons X, Y and Z (Needed for Street
Fighter and a few others)

RISC OS stuff:

1. Fix window and scaling so it's the size of the display (320x240 or
640x480 with equal black borders for now at top,bottom,right,left
as needed to pad out any spare space)
2. Speed throttle, needed on Iyonix
3. Allow sound to be toggled on and off
4. Config file that can be edited in an editor for default scale,
sound on/off, joypad button config, keyboard button config
5. A way to pause emulation and use the rest of the desktop at full
speed, before returning to the game
6. Make sound sound better (currently distorted)
7. Full screen mode (can have default settings in config file. i.e.
320x240 at 100% or 640x480 at 200%.)
8. Menu for setting scale, sound and other options. Also option to
save sprite of screen.
9. Make sound let other apps make sound that the same time
10.Iconbar icon
11.Choices GUI

General:

1. Faster :-D
Possible built in interface idea:
When it's run without a ROM, there could be a text interface to select a ROM, overlayed on the dark bit of the title screen. The list is generated by listing all the ROMs in a ROMs directory (set in the config file) and one is highlighted. It just uses the filenames. Up, Down and Start can be used to select and launch a ROM. Escape could return to the ROM list. Escape at ROM list closes the window. I'll make a mockup image. :)

I think Plamethrower has stuff to do bitmap fonts and stuff like this.
Current emulator abilities and whether we should switch to a better one:
Are there any deficiencies in the VDP emulation, or elsewhere in PicoDrive that you know about and haven't mentioned? I'm only aware of the maximum number of sprites not being emulated and hence Sonic appearing in front of the title scroll; something that I'm sure could be easily fixed.
Yes I've seen a few things like baddies randomly appearing on the screen in Sonic and some strangeness with sprite plotting. Games are generally playable but aren't emulated 100% correctly.

Going though this list of screenshots:

http://www.squish.net/generator/shots.html

We get the Ecco line shifting right.

Sonic title screen wrong 'cos of max sprites limit not being emulated

Sonic 2 title screen wrong (characters on top of logo as they come in). Apparently because sprite priorities aren't correct.

Sonic 1 Marble Zone wrong (fireballs behind the grass so only the tops of them show). Another sprite priority thing where the foreground sprite should get cut out.

Wolfchild looks fine in PicoDrive (never played it before, so I'm just going by their screenshot).

Travellers Tales logo is not right in PicoDrive (see Sonic 3D). Apparently it's highlight/shadow features.

Not checked the 2nd Ecco screenshot yet.

The reason I asked is that I was looking at the Z80 and PSG emulations in Generator last night and I think they could be easily merged into PicoDrive, but I was wondering whether that's the best approach - perhaps moving Cyclone into Generator would make more sense? (Haven't looked at that yet.)
OK. I better research whether Generator is the best candidate. It's not been updated for a few years. I think others may have passed it.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79881, posted by Phlamethrower at 21:15, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79880
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Vauge priorety list:
All except the Z80 emulation can be easily done now. (Although I'd need to find out what memory locations etc. the X,Y,Z buttons need mapping to)

I think Plamethrower has stuff to do bitmap fonts and stuff like this.
Yeah, that stuff is easy.

We also need to add support for whatever it is that's stopping Micro Machines 2 from working (the copy from romhustler comes as 5 ROM files, so presumably something like SRAM banking will fix it. And the Z80 emulation!)

(Note to self: try MM2 in latest version of DOSBox)
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Michael Drake Message #79882, posted by tlsa at 21:40, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79881

Posts: 1096
Vauge priorety list:
All except the Z80 emulation can be easily done now. (Although I'd need to find out what memory locations etc. the X,Y,Z buttons need mapping to)
OK, cool.

I think Plamethrower has stuff to do bitmap fonts and stuff like this.
Yeah, that stuff is easy.
Yay!

We also need to add support for whatever it is that's stopping Micro Machines 2 from working (the copy from romhustler comes as 5 ROM files, so presumably something like SRAM banking will fix it. And the Z80 emulation!)
I'd guess it's the Z80 thing. Also I think the different Micro Machines ROMs are not different parts of one ROM, just different versions of it and each one is a full game.

BTW, Micro Machines '96 Tournament is the best version. It's Micro Machines 2 + more levels + track editor.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79883, posted by Phlamethrower at 21:56, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79882
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Also I think the different Micro Machines ROMs are not different parts of one ROM, just different versions of it and each one is a full game.
I did initially think that, but it seems a bit small. The PC version (of Turbo Tournament + various other levels) is 22.5MB. And then there's half an hour of CD music :o (Which I'm guessing the MegaDrive version won't have :cry: )

BTW, Micro Machines '96 Tournament is the best version. It's Micro Machines 2 + more levels + track editor.
Yeah, that's probably the one I want, since that's the one I have the PC version of.
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Michael Drake Message #79885, posted by tlsa at 22:03, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79883

Posts: 1096
I did initially think that, but it seems a bit small. The PC version (of Turbo Tournament + various other levels) is 22.5MB. And then there's half an hour of CD music :o (Which I'm guessing the MegaDrive version won't have :cry: )
The MegaDrive version did have music. I dunno what the PC version sounded like. The Micro Machines '96 is about 1 MB. 22.5 MB sounds like excessive PC bloatage. :o

Romnation works in NS.

[Edited by tlsa at 22:04, 6/9/2006]
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79886, posted by Phlamethrower at 22:10, 6/9/2006, in reply to message #79885
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
I dunno what the PC version sounded like.
The words "F*cking" and "excellent" come to mind.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79903, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:48, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79883
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
BTW, Micro Machines '96 Tournament is the best version. It's Micro Machines 2 + more levels + track editor.
Yeah, that's probably the one I want, since that's the one I have the PC version of.
Actually, it's the MM2 special edition that I have for PC. It has the same tracks & drivers etc. as MM2, but with the construction kit and 50 extra tracks designed by the players. Compared to the MegaDrive versions it also has more colours (e.g. the pool table is green instead of pink :P), 4-player mode, better sound effects, race commentator bloke (who is also helpful on some tracks for pointing out when corners are coming), the CD music when racing, and some wav's/backdrops for use in windows.
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Michael Drake Message #79904, posted by tlsa at 17:08, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79903

Posts: 1096
BTW, Micro Machines '96 Tournament is the best version. It's Micro Machines 2 + more levels + track editor.
Yeah, that's probably the one I want, since that's the one I have the PC version of.
Actually, it's the MM2 special edition that I have for PC. It has the same tracks & drivers etc. as MM2, but with the construction kit and 50 extra tracks designed by the players. Compared to the MegaDrive versions it also has more colours (e.g. the pool table is green instead of pink :P), 4-player mode, better sound effects, race commentator bloke (who is also helpful on some tracks for pointing out when corners are coming), the CD music when racing, and some wav's/backdrops for use in windows.
The pool table on the MegaDrive was green. Also the MegaDrive version has not only four player but 8 player support.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79906, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:17, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79904
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
The pool table on the MegaDrive was green.
Hmm, must have been a dodgy emulator then.

Also the MegaDrive version has not only four player but 8 player support.
All at the same time? :o
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Michael Drake Message #79907, posted by tlsa at 17:24, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79906

Posts: 1096
Also the MegaDrive version has not only four player but 8 player support.
All at the same time? :o
Yep. You could plug four controllers in with either a multi-tap (converts the 2 ports on the front of the console into four) or the J-Cart version of the Micro Machines cartridge (which had 2 additional controller ports on the cartridge). That got you the normal four player modes.

The eight player was done with 2 players per controller. One on the d-pad, one on the buttons. It worked surprisingly well. :E

My favourite was 4 player with teams - two on each side.

Also, there was a tournament mode for 16 players, but not all play at once.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79908, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:26, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79907
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Also, there was a tournament mode for 16 players, but not all play at once.
Yeah, the PC version has that too.
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79911, posted by Phlamethrower at 18:04, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #78966
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Project #3: Improve the movie playing capabilities of RISC OS
How pathetic would a RISC OS port of mplayer be? The GP2X uses it, and it's (allegedly) a popular system because of its movie playing capabilities. It can also (allegedly) play movies at up to 2500Kbps video bitrate - enough for DVB-T (Although it doesn't say which codec/resolution/framerate it is at that bitrate). You can also get the source to the GP2X version.

Or should we just resume waiting for Cino/Cineroma? :P
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79913, posted by Phlamethrower at 18:22, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79911
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
Or should we just resume waiting for Cino/Cineroma? :P
This. I don't feel like trying to get 42MB of source code working |puke|

The GP2X version is under 8MB, but I'd still rather have someone else do it :P

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 18:24, 7/9/2006]
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Adrian Lees Message #79914, posted by adrianl at 18:30, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79913
Member
Posts: 1631
This. I don't feel like trying to get 42MB of source code working |puke|
So how big do you think the Cino source is?
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Jeffrey Lee Message #79916, posted by Phlamethrower at 18:38, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79914
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15096
This. I don't feel like trying to get 42MB of source code working |puke|
So how big do you think the Cino source is?
Do I really want to know? :P

Anyway, you'll have presumably written most of that yourself (or got some clever programs to write it for you), so it's a bit different to porting someone else's code.

Which must mean that Cino is a port of mplayer :o
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Adrian Lees Message #79920, posted by adrianl at 18:52, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79916
Member
Posts: 1631
Which must mean that Cino is a port of mplayer :o
They quite possibly have some common ancestry in the form of mpeg2dec. Which is perhaps unfortunate because I've come to the conclusion that the only way to get to 25fps is to write pretty much the whole of the decoder yourself, constantly thinking of the memory access patterns and the cycle count.



Edit: And then you'll still have to worry about the pitch bend/distortion effect that you get on the IX audio output when transferring data at video rates to the gfx card (not sure whether I've mentioned this publicly before, but I'm doing so now because somebody's going to notice it with PicoDrive sooner or later).


[Edited by adrianl at 18:53, 7/9/2006]
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Sion Message #79921, posted by blasts of the xtre at 18:53, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79920
blasts of the xtre
Suppose you were an idiot. Suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.

Posts: 326
Adrian, is the Cino project still paused?
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Mike Message #79922, posted by MikeCarter at 19:02, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79921
MikeCarter

Posts: 401
Adrian, is the Cino project still paused?
I think he paused it because it became not financially viable, due to the fact that you can pick up a DVD player for about £20 these days.
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Adrian Lees Message #79923, posted by adrianl at 19:07, 7/9/2006, in reply to message #79922
Member
Posts: 1631
The situation is:

(i) I have a full-time programming job outside the RISC OS market now, so I have less time to work on Cino.

(ii) I am quite confident that for any price we tried to sell it at, the per unit price x number of units would nowhere near cover my development time if I earned only minimum wage.

(iii) There is still a lot of development required to get it to up to an acceptable performance and quality for it to be sold.

(iv) I could release all of the work that I've already done with a warning that it is incomplete and not very good (which many people will ignore and publicly post insulting remarks about something that I've put a lot of effort into and they've downloaded for no cost and no effort).

(v) If I release it, I write off any chance of remuneration for all of the work that I've already done on it.

(vi) If I don't release it, the RO world remains without even half a DVD player :-/

Ergo, I haven't decided and Cino lives suspended in a hopeful state of one day being completed because either (i) I find the time required to hone the code to the degree required to produce a good player, or (ii) a faster RISC OS machine comes along and the existing code can just be tidied up a bit and used as is.


Edit: Oh, and fwiw, all of the above was as true a year ago as it is today, imho. The fact that Neil took it upon himself to post a reply on the newsgroups doesn't mean that the project's state has changed at all. It has been stalled whilst I worked on Geminus in the hopes of trying to reap enough sales to sustain further commercial development for RO. It didn't happen.

[Edited by adrianl at 19:20, 7/9/2006]
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The Icon Bar: The Playpen: Over the summer V: Oh god not another Rocky movie