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The Icon Bar: News and features: That's just sick and wrong
 

That's just sick and wrong

Posted by Phil Mellor on 17:00, 3/12/2006 | , ,
 
The latest beta of Parallels Desktop for Mac introduces a Coherence mode which allows Windows applications to run as part of the Mac desktop:
 

 
Sick and wrong perhaps, but very clever. If such a feature could be implemented for Virtual RiscPC, would you use it? Would you like to see RISC OS apps on the Windows desktop, or vice versa?
 
  That's just sick and wrong
  Phlamethrower (17:25 3/12/2006)
  ad (17:30 3/12/2006)
    blasts of the xtre (17:31 3/12/2006)
    rich (12:37 4/12/2006)
      moss (14:41 4/12/2006)
        VincceH (18:00 4/12/2006)
          ad (18:14 4/12/2006)
            monkeyson2 (18:25 4/12/2006)
              ad (18:32 4/12/2006)
                monkeyson2 (18:48 4/12/2006)
                  Richard Hallas (19:00 4/12/2006)
                  filecore (15:21 5/12/2006)
                    moss (15:40 5/12/2006)
                      monkeyson2 (15:44 5/12/2006)
                    rich (15:47 5/12/2006)
                      monkeyson2 (15:53 5/12/2006)
                        rich (16:27 5/12/2006)
                          Richard Hallas (17:37 5/12/2006)
                            monkeyson2 (18:03 5/12/2006)
                          filecore (19:04 5/12/2006)
                            moss (19:31 5/12/2006)
                              monkeyson2 (19:37 5/12/2006)
                            rich (22:16 5/12/2006)
  mavhc (21:37 4/12/2006)
    monkeyson2 (22:08 4/12/2006)
 
Jeffrey Lee Message #95173, posted by Phlamethrower at 17:25, 3/12/2006
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15060
WinRISC did this long before you silly Mac users thought of it :P

http://www.acorn-gaming.org.uk/index.php3?p=Features/PC/sw#winrisc

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 17:26, 3/12/2006]
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Andrew Duffell Message #95174, posted by ad at 17:30, 3/12/2006, in reply to message #95173
ad

Posts: 3229
That's quite funky.
I'd love to be able to use a program such as Artworks on my Windows XP desktop like that.
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Sion Message #95175, posted by blasts of the xtre at 17:31, 3/12/2006, in reply to message #95174
blasts of the xtre
Suppose you were an idiot. Suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.

Posts: 326
:P
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Richard Goodwin Message #95232, posted by rich at 12:37, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95174
Rich
Webmaster
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Posts: 6766
That's quite funky.
I'd love to be able to use a program such as Artworks on my Windows XP desktop like that.
Oh dear. If someone were to get ArtWorks, Photodesk and StrongEd working in Windows, I'd never switch my Risc PC on at all.
________
RichGCheers,
Rich.
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John Hoare Message #95245, posted by moss at 14:41, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95232

Posts: 9346
I was avoiding getting Parallels for my Mac Mini, but I think I'm going to have to do it - just for IE testing...
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VinceH Message #95263, posted by VincceH at 18:00, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95245
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1589
While funnily enough Parallels is the very reason that my next laptop is likely to be a Mac (because there are a couple of Windows apps I need to run) - and this new funky Coherence toy just adds to that reason.

VRPCSESATLAETC for the Mac would be a bonus.
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Andrew Duffell Message #95264, posted by ad at 18:14, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95263
ad

Posts: 3229
I'm still put off by the price tags on Mac computer, especially if I want a laptop.

I just bought a Core2Duo 1.66GHz, 1GB RAM, 160GB HD, DVD+-RW, WinXP MCE with free Vista upgrade, and that only cost me £450ish
Yeh a mucg lower spec Mac laptop (except for a slightly faster processor) would cost me £749.00.

As much as I would like a Mac, I'd never pay the prices they charge... however, if Mac OS would run on my Dell laptop I'd buy it right up.
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Phil Mellor Message #95265, posted by monkeyson2 at 18:25, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95264
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
I'm still put off by the price tags on Mac computer, especially if I want a laptop.

I just bought a Core2Duo 1.66GHz, 1GB RAM, 160GB HD, DVD+-RW, WinXP MCE with free Vista upgrade, and that only cost me £450ish
Yeh a mucg lower spec Mac laptop (except for a slightly faster processor) would cost me £749.00.
*re-educates Andrew with a large blunt object* (a Dell)

Apple are quite competitive on higher-end systems these days. It's just that they don't have any comparable low-end systems. (Even the systems with smaller numbers still tend to include the kitchen sink - bluetooth, wireless networking, gigabit ethernet, etc. A lot of cheaper PCs miss out on these features.)

Remember that Macs come with iLife - iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, FrontRow - XCode 2, a proper Unix*, and a whole bunch more. What does Windows come with? Notepad? Calculator? :P And all Macs come with the scrumptious OS X, which is worth any number of cheap Dell discounts and free Vista upgrades ;) I think the OS is far more important than the hardware specs - after all, it's the OS that I use 100% of the time on the computer, not the 40GB of extra hard drive space.

Basically, if you're comparing specs, you need to compare all the specs, including the things the Mac has that the cheap PC doesn't, and how much you value your time using the system (the sort of value you can't put on a credit card).

As much as I would like a Mac, I'd never pay the prices they charge... however, if Mac OS would run on my Dell laptop I'd buy it right up.
Yes, but then it would suck. :P



* for varying degrees of proper and Unix.

[Edited by monkeyson2 at 18:32, 4/12/2006]
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Andrew Duffell Message #95266, posted by ad at 18:32, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95265
ad

Posts: 3229
I'm still put off by the price tags on Mac computer, especially if I want a laptop.

I just bought a Core2Duo 1.66GHz, 1GB RAM, 160GB HD, DVD+-RW, WinXP MCE with free Vista upgrade, and that only cost me £450ish
Yeh a mucg lower spec Mac laptop (except for a slightly faster processor) would cost me £749.00.
*re-educates Andrew with a large blunt object* (a Dell)

Apple are quite competitive on higher-end systems these days. It's just that they don't have any comparable low-end systems.

Remember that Macs come with iLife - iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, FrontRow - XCode 2, a proper Unix*, and a whole bunch more. What does Windows come with? Notepad? Calculator? :P And all Macs come with the scrumptious OS X, which is worth any number of cheap Dell discounts and free Vista upgrades ;) I think the OS is far more important than the hardware specs - after all, it's the OS I use 100% of the time on the computer, not the 40GB of extra hard drive space.
But do I want these programs? I'd prefer it to be cheaper, and to pay extra for the programs I want later, not have them force upon me.
Windows may come with nothing, but all the programs I want to use day to day are free anyway!
Firefox, MSN Messenger, Open Office, SharpReader, iTunes.

As much as I would like a Mac, I'd never pay the prices they charge... however, if Mac OS would run on my Dell laptop I'd buy it right up.
Yes, but then it would suck. :P
Would it? Even on my machine that is specified similarly to Macs? IIRC, the Mac Mini has exactly the same processor as my Dell.

[Edited by ad at 18:33, 4/12/2006]
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Phil Mellor Message #95267, posted by monkeyson2 at 18:48, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95266
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
But do I want these programs? I'd prefer it to be cheaper, and to pay extra for the programs I want later, not have them force upon me.
Windows may come with nothing, but all the programs I want to use day to day are free anyway!
Firefox, MSN Messenger, Open Office, SharpReader, iTunes.
You want them because they're great! :P

Or, even if you don't, you have to consider them when comparing the specs. Apple sell you a solution; Dell sell you a computer. Dell is cheaper; Apple adds value.

Would RISC OS have been so great if it didn't come with Draw?

Yes, but then it would suck. :P
Would it? Even on my machine that is specified similarly to Macs? IIRC, the Mac Mini has exactly the same processor as my Dell.
Yes. Because:

a) A nice shiny Mac makes you look cool and creative and attractive, whereas a duff old PC, at best, doesn't.

b) I challenge you to fall in love with a Dell.

c) One reason Mac OS X can be developed more easily, quickly, and is more stable, is because it runs on a known set of hardware. Less chance of sucky drivers!

(Look how well Windows has managed in terms of stability and testing; and how well RISC OS has managed by having the OS developers team up with the hardware guys).

d) Hardware + OS == innovation.
Do you really think the iMac, or iPod, or OS X, or giving up on floppy drives, or standardising on USB peripherals, would have worked if Apple had to deal with lots of manufacturers?

It's part of the Mac experience - you know that it does these things. It's part of what defines it. PC hardware - bit long list of ifs and buts and choices. Can you buy a Mac and play your movies and photos and music from the sofa with a remote? Yes. With a PC? Maybe. I'll check.
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Richard Hallas Message #95268, posted by Richard Hallas at 19:00, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95267
Member
Posts: 12
Parallels is great, and the latest beta is a big improvement on an already impressive product.

My biggest regret about it is that, at present, it can't run VRPC properly. Actually, that's not /quite/ true: on a MacBook, VRPC appears to run very well under Parallels, but unfortunately there's a mouse problem that renders operation of the RISC OS desktop almost impossible. (The pointer jumps around in increments of what I estimate to be 64 pixels at a time.)

If the Parallels developers could fix that particular problem, VRPC running under Parallels would actually be a very good solution for Mac users (until a proper native version appears, at least).

By the way, VRPC *does* now run (just) under the latest beta of CrossOver. However, it's far too slow to be usable for anything serious, and is rather glitchy into the bargain.
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Mark Scholes Message #95279, posted by mavhc at 21:37, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95173
Member
Posts: 660
> Would you like to see RISC OS apps on the Windows desktop

Not if whenever I clicked on them they jumped to the front for no apparent reason.
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Phil Mellor Message #95283, posted by monkeyson2 at 22:08, 4/12/2006, in reply to message #95279
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
> Would you like to see RISC OS apps on the Windows desktop

Not if whenever I clicked on them they jumped to the front for no apparent reason.
Yeah, I suspect the main problem would be toolbars and dialogues - Windows would not treat them very well. You get this problem with The Gimp and (iirc) Ovation Pro.
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Jason Togneri Message #95318, posted by filecore at 15:21, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95267

Posts: 3867
Would RISC OS have been so great if it didn't come with Draw?
Hell no. I used to do some bloody brilliant things with Draw. And pixel-by-pixel editing on Paint was good too. Haven't found anything on the PC to match it yet.

Can you buy a Mac and play your movies and photos and music from the sofa with a remote? Yes. With a PC? Maybe. I'll check.
Yes. I have one of these (and incidentally, I also have, on a different machine, one of these - can you control your entire Mac with just a remote in lieu of keyboard and mouse? Eh? Eh?).

Oh, and incidentally, my remote will work with any version of Windows XP/Media Player and the reciever just plugs in via USB. We didn't bother investing in a DVD player since the machine in the livingroom is wired to both the TV and the stereo (and incidentally has a capture card, so we can record on the VCR and the computer at the same time if needs be, and there's a seperate set of wires running from the VCR to the capture card so that the wifey can capture all her old video tapes into digital). The stereo does us well enough as surround sound. My eyes and ears only operate at around 5kbps anyway.

[Edited by filecore at 15:24, 5/12/2006]
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John Hoare Message #95319, posted by moss at 15:40, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95318

Posts: 9346
You could argue about PCs v. Macs until you're DEAD.

Personally, I love Macs. The reason?

a) I love the hardware. Yes, you pay a premium for lower-end models (although as :monkey: says, not higher-end) - but my Mac Mini was worth paying a premium for. Because it's just *perfect* for my needs.

b) More importantly - OS X. I used Windows for years, and never once enjoyed it. I got more joy out of using OS X than I ever have from Windows after five minutes of use.

But if you're not crazy over OS X, or if Apple's hardware isn't what you need, then you're not going to buy it - and quite right too. The lesson I learnt from the whole Iyonix saga is - buy what you need, for the tasks you want to do. And don't let anyone or anything sway you from that.
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Phil Mellor Message #95321, posted by monkeyson2 at 15:44, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95319
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
You could argue about PCs v. Macs until you're DEAD.
And I will! :P

The lesson I learnt from the whole Iyonix saga is - buy what you need, for the tasks you want to do. And don't let anyone or anything sway you from that.
Yes. But buy a Mac anyway. :P
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Richard Goodwin Message #95324, posted by rich at 15:47, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95318
Rich
Webmaster
The Icon Bar

Posts: 6766
My PC (regular Windows XP) has a remote control, which I use when playing movie files. It's hooked up to the TV and a 5.1 sound system, so controlling it from the sofa makes sense.

However, I also have one of those NetStation wireless keyboards with the trackball built in, which means pretty much any computer in my house can be remotely controlled, even the RISC OS ones :)
________
RichGCheers,
Rich.
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Phil Mellor Message #95326, posted by monkeyson2 at 15:53, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95324
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
My PC (regular Windows XP) has a remote control, which I use when playing movie files. It's hooked up to the TV and a 5.1 sound system, so controlling it from the sofa makes sense.

However, I also have one of those NetStation wireless keyboards with the trackball built in, which means pretty much any computer in my house can be remotely controlled, even the RISC OS ones :)
My point wasn't whether or not you could do it, it's that with a Mac you know you can, because it's a standard feature. You can only say that because Apple control the hardware.

It makes selling/branding/envangelising so much easier:

With a Mac you can do X, Y, and Z. You can can do X, Y, and Z on a PC too, but you might need to to buy dongle A, make sure you get Premium Edition B, or purchase and install program C first. Oh, and although freebie D comes with that bundle from manufacturer E in shop F, it's no good.

[Edited by monkeyson2 at 15:55, 5/12/2006]
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Richard Goodwin Message #95330, posted by rich at 16:27, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95326
Rich
Webmaster
The Icon Bar

Posts: 6766
Ah, but the PC is probably much cheaper in the first place, so buying a cheap remote is easier because you're less skint :)

Actually, I built the PC myself from parts, to play games. Both of which rules out a Mac :P
________
RichGCheers,
Rich.
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Richard Hallas Message #95345, posted by Richard Hallas at 17:37, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95330
Member
Posts: 12
Actually, I built the PC myself from parts, to play games. Both of which rules out a Mac :P
Yes, fair enough, you can't build your own Mac. But if you want games then you're actually better off with a Mac than with a PC, assuming you buy a fast, modern Intel Mac with a good graphics card (i.e. any current model except a MacBook or a mini, which have integrated graphics).

The point is, of course, that you can install Windows on them and run all existing PC games extremely well. Then, on top of those, you have access to all the original Mac-only games too. OK, there may not be vast numbers of them, but there /are/ quite a few (including some really good ones), and they're all additional to what you can get for the PC.

For example, WingNuts and WingNuts 2 are two of the most fun games I've ever played. And WingNuts, which used to be commercial, is now free. Any Mac user who doesn't have it should download it at once. It's terrific. Get it here:

http://www.freeverse.com/wn2/

The bottom line is that Macs are now PCs in terms of hardware. Really attractive and well-engineered PCs that come with a different OS, but PCs nevertheless, so they offer a complete superset of whatever you can do with a PC.

If you don't feel that the extra software, better general quality and superior OS are worth paying a little extra for then stick with a bog-standard PC by all means. But it seems to me that Macs are now the obvious choice for most users. The laptops are all lovely, the Mac Pros are really powerful (and miles better value than the previous G5 series), and the iMacs (particularly the new 24" one) are outstanding value for what you get.

I'd just like a native version of VRPC to run on my MacBook.
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Phil Mellor Message #95354, posted by monkeyson2 at 18:03, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95345
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
^ This.
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Jason Togneri Message #95361, posted by filecore at 19:04, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95330

Posts: 3867
Ah, but the PC is probably much cheaper in the first place, so buying a cheap remote is easier because you're less skint :)

Actually, I built the PC myself from parts, to play games. Both of which rules out a Mac :P
Ditto here. Pretty much every computer I have, apart from the RPC (and it's been upgraded with RAM, VRAM, StrongARM, network card and misc from its original spec when I first got it) has been built from parts. The WinXPMCE remote and reciever cost 20 euros from a computer shop. Same functionality, a tiny bit more work, a fraction of the cost. Ha.
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John Hoare Message #95371, posted by moss at 19:31, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95361

Posts: 9346
Well, this is precisely why I keep saying Macs aren't for everyone. People who don't care about OS X, and who want to build their own hardware, aren't going to be arsed with them.

I adore OS X, and have lost most of my interest in building puters (I'm busy with other things). So they're absolutely suitable for me.

Different people like different things. I find OS flamewars boring :P
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Phil Mellor Message #95373, posted by monkeyson2 at 19:37, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95371
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
I adore OS X, and have lost most of my interest in building puters (I'm busy with other things). So they're absolutely suitable for me.
I know nothing about hardware and struggle putting a disk in a disk drive, so building a PC is out of the question. :P

I care whether something uses a lot of energy, or has dubious manufacturing processes, or can't be recycled, but I don't give too hoots about the numbers and specs any more.
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Richard Goodwin Message #95390, posted by rich at 22:16, 5/12/2006, in reply to message #95361
Rich
Webmaster
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Posts: 6766
Pretty much every computer I have, apart from the RPC [...] has been built from parts.
Actually, I built a Risc PC from parts too. I had a case from a broken machine, got in a motherboard and prototype StrongARM from CJE, memory from some PC box shifter, spare hard drive... That was my fileserver for a while.
________
RichGCheers,
Rich.
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The Icon Bar: News and features: That's just sick and wrong