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The Icon Bar: Games: Best free RISC OS games!
 
  Best free RISC OS games!
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Rob Heaton Message #113062, posted by robheaton at 15:23, 26/1/2010, in reply to message #113056
Member
Posts: 74
.

[Edited by robheaton at 19:53, 31/1/2010]
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Andrew Hodgson Message #113063, posted by Andy_Hodgson at 15:54, 26/1/2010, in reply to message #113062
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Posts: 65
gone

[Edited by Andy_Hodgson at 19:27, 31/1/2010]
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Rob Heaton Message #113064, posted by robheaton at 16:21, 26/1/2010, in reply to message #113063
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Posts: 74
.

[Edited by robheaton at 19:53, 31/1/2010]
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Rob Heaton Message #113091, posted by robheaton at 14:43, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113064
Member
Posts: 74
The companies that own the copyright on the ISO's have asked them to be removed.


I ask that anyone that has downloaded them, to delete their copies ASAP.

[Edited by robheaton at 19:59, 31/1/2010]
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Jason Togneri Message #113092, posted by filecore at 15:25, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113091

Posts: 3867
Please specify, which ISOs? From what I saw, those were from a variety of different sources. Surely you weren't contacted within a single day by all of them? Or were you just bullied around by some stern-sounding mumbo-jumbo and legal threats? I would like to see the takedown message for myself, if I may.
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Andrew Poole Message #113093, posted by andypoole at 15:32, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113092
andypoole
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Please specify, which ISOs? From what I saw, those were from a variety of different sources. Surely you weren't contacted within a single day by all of them? Or were you just bullied around by some stern-sounding mumbo-jumbo and legal threats? I would like to see the takedown message for myself, if I may.
^this.

Looking at some of the ones that have been available, some of the Acorn User ones invite you to "Share this CD with your friends"...

Andy.
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Rob Heaton Message #113094, posted by robheaton at 15:54, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113093
Member
Posts: 74
The Datafile CD's and Foundation RISC User copyright is owned by APDL.

The RISC User CD rights are owned by R-Comp.

The Acorn User CD rights are owned by John Cartmell

The Kosovo CD rights are owned by Paul Johnson

This is the information I have been sent, I certainly don't know enough on copyright law to say any different, nor do I know how to prove who owns distribution rights/copyright.
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Peter Howkins Message #113095, posted by flibble at 16:01, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113094
flibble

Posts: 888
The Datafile CD's and Foundation RISC User copyright is owned by APDL.

The RISC User CD rights are owned by R-Comp.

The Acorn User CD rights are owned by John Cartmell

The Kosovo CD rights are owned by Paul Johnson

This is the information I have been sent, I certainly don't know enough on copyright law to say any different, nor do I know how to prove who owns distribution rights/copyright.
And have any of those people asked you to stop distribution?
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Andrew Poole Message #113096, posted by andypoole at 16:07, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113094
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This is the information I have been sent, I certainly don't know enough on copyright law to say any different, nor do I know how to prove who owns distribution rights/copyright.
And most (all?) of them are out of print and can't be bought any more.

Pity. My Kosovo CD fails to read any more. I was quite keen to get a replacement ISO for it.

Andy.
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VinceH Message #113097, posted by VincceH at 16:10, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113092
VincceH
Lowering the tone since the dawn of time

Posts: 1600
Please specify, which ISOs? From what I saw, those were from a variety of different sources. Surely you weren't contacted within a single day by all of them? Or were you just bullied around by some stern-sounding mumbo-jumbo and legal threats? I would like to see the takedown message for myself, if I may.
And despite my pointing out that there may be copyright issues in some cases, I do actually agree with Jason.

If anyone is seriously issuing takedown messages and legal threats for such out of date discs featuring out of date software, I'd be very interested in knowing who, including that being backed up by a reasonable assessment of just how much these old discs are going to impact on their current business and earnings.

Some things are just not worth the effort of protecting, and the software on these discs is very definitely in that category. (So I wish I'd kept my mouth shut now instead of pointing out that putting it online was of dubious legality.)

(Well, I assume it is. Are there any old versions of applications and games on any of those CDs that are actually still being sold in newer versions?)
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Jason Togneri Message #113098, posted by filecore at 16:20, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113095

Posts: 3867
The Datafile CD's and Foundation RISC User copyright is owned by [snip snip]
And have any of those people asked you to stop distribution?
Precisely the point. Everything is owned by something. The copyright of the individual apps on those discs is also owned by others. But simply having this pointed out to you doesn't mean anyone has a right to order you around - please give more details on this issue.

As others have said here, some of these are long out of print, most copies are scratched into unreadability or long since thrown in the bin, and these are increasingly impossible to get hold of. If anyone genuinely cared about RISC OS and its community, they would be proactive in helping to keep it alive, not by obscuring a few ancient apps that very few people actually have copies of or access to.

If this continues, these things will be completely forgotten within a few years - and who does that benefit? Certainly not the copyright holders, who presumably wrote their apps to be seen by others. Since it hasn't a commercial issue for many years, I don't see what harm non-profit distribution can do at this juncture.

[Edited by filecore at 16:21, 27/1/2010]
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Andrew Hodgson Message #113099, posted by Andy_Hodgson at 16:22, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113097
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Posts: 65
We have had the same problems in the 8bit community. However the only one that has been forced to be took down (AFAIK) is Granny's Garden (BBC version) by 4motion, as they do still sell the Granny's Garden programs.
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Peter Naulls Message #113100, posted by pnaulls at 16:32, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113094
Member
Posts: 317
The Datafile CD's and Foundation RISC User copyright is owned by APDL.

The RISC User CD rights are owned by R-Comp.

The Acorn User CD rights are owned by John Cartmell

The Kosovo CD rights are owned by Paul Johnson

This is the information I have been sent, I certainly don't know enough on copyright law to say any different, nor do I know how to prove who owns distribution rights/copyright.
Well, I dare say the situation is a lot more complicated than that. Certainly the CD producers will have (or should have had) distribution rights on the CD contents, and presumably have copyright on any intro/menu material/artwork etc.

But ultimately, the CDs are collections of works, all under different copyrights (some of the clip art and a small percentage of the software will be genuinely PD, but this is not as common as public perception might have it).

There's certainly justification for archival of this material - last year I sold a complete set of AU CDs on ebay - they went to a computer museum in Silicon Valley, but beyond that, anyone interested in distributing contents will need to check the licenses of each and every item.

Don't forget this fubar, where PFJ included Spark on an AUCD. IIRC, AU was forced to pay compensation to DP.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn.apps/browse_thread/thread/2225df4a79a2925f/fae6b637eede877e?q=Paul+Johnson+david+pilling

[Edited by Phlamethrower at 16:46, 27/1/2010. Fixed link]
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Jason Togneri Message #113101, posted by filecore at 16:36, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113100

Posts: 3867
I'm actually even more curious about one thing. Both Hodgson and I are hosting a damn sight more than the paltry few files that Rob Heaton was offering, and yet neither of us have receieved any sort of correspondence regarding the issue. This smells very much like somebody just stirring the muck, and making random threats.

Again, I'd like to know the identity of the bully. The only way he or she could possibly have learned of this activity was from this thread, and my own part in this has been significantly more prominent, for significantly longer, as has Andrew Hodgson's. If this is a genuine situation, then I would like to recieve a legal threat of my own, thanks.
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Jason Togneri Message #113102, posted by filecore at 16:37, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113100

Posts: 3867
Don't forget this fubar, where PFJ included Spark on an AUCD. IIRC, AU was forced to pay compensation to DP.
Yes. This was fully a decade ago, when that software may have had some sort of commercial relevance. I thank you for making my point.
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Rob Heaton Message #113103, posted by robheaton at 17:12, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113095
Member
Posts: 74
The Datafile CD's and Foundation RISC User copyright is owned by APDL.

The RISC User CD rights are owned by R-Comp.

The Acorn User CD rights are owned by John Cartmell

The Kosovo CD rights are owned by Paul Johnson

This is the information I have been sent, I certainly don't know enough on copyright law to say any different, nor do I know how to prove who owns distribution rights/copyright.
And have any of those people asked you to stop distribution?
Yes,
I was contacted by APDL, as Dave Holden still sells some of these CD's and makes a living from selling them, I respect his descision to ask me to remove them.
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vanpeebles Message #113104, posted by vanpeebles at 17:17, 27/1/2010, in reply to message #113103
Member
Posts: 198
If Dave Holden had a better telephone manner and treated his customers properly then he might do a lot better.
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hydrouk Message #113146, posted by hydrouk at 15:40, 28/1/2010, in reply to message #113104
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Posts: 5
I can second that hehe wink
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Jason Togneri Message #113153, posted by filecore at 11:00, 29/1/2010, in reply to message #113146

Posts: 3867
Back on topic, I don't suppose anybody out there has a copy of AUCD9, or anything from 11 upwards? These seem to be about as common as fairy dust. Hmm, perhaps rjek has a copy.
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Colin Cartmell-Browne Message #113154, posted by Col at 15:55, 29/1/2010, in reply to message #113153
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Posts: 89
Back on topic, I don't suppose anybody out there has a copy of AUCD9, or anything from 11 upwards? These seem to be about as common as fairy dust. Hmm, perhaps rjek has a copy.
Have you tried emailing John Cartmell?

He may have one, but I know that some back issues of mags/cds had run out and where not included in the hand over when he took over.
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Jason Togneri Message #113155, posted by filecore at 17:00, 29/1/2010, in reply to message #113154

Posts: 3867
I certainly hope somebody has one, otherwise it's effectively lost forever :-( and that would be a shame.
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vanpeebles Message #113157, posted by vanpeebles at 22:51, 29/1/2010, in reply to message #113155
Member
Posts: 198
I have AU11 here, still looking through others.

Just found 12 and 13.

[Edited by vanpeebles at 16:02, 30/1/2010]
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Jason Togneri Message #113164, posted by filecore at 19:05, 30/1/2010, in reply to message #113157

Posts: 3867
I don't want them anymore, since such activity is in breach of copyright law and decent moral behaviour.

[Edited by filecore at 16:13, 1/2/2010]
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Graeme Walters Message #113176, posted by bigred at 10:55, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113164
Member
Posts: 1
Jason,
I see that you are missing "Foundation RISC User"
I have just ripped my copy into an ISO

Get in touch...
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Jason Togneri Message #113177, posted by filecore at 11:06, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113176

Posts: 3867
You obviously didn't read what I wrote in my previous post. I do not want these files! Such activity is illegal, please cease and desist!

[Edited by filecore at 16:14, 1/2/2010]
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Rob Heaton Message #113178, posted by robheaton at 18:14, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113177
Member
Posts: 74
F.A.O Jason Togneri, Andrew Hodgson, Graeme Walters & Anyone else distributing copyrighted material!

The ISO images you are distributing are copyrighted. Distrubuting these without the copyright holders permission is illigal! STOP NOW!!

I posted the information Dave Holden gave me regarding who owns the copyright/distribution rights. Have you obtained their permission to redistribute these files?

So everyone can see for themselves, here is a copy of the Email I received;


<---SNIP--->
I've just seen this item on the Iconbar

http://www.iconbar.co.uk/forums/viewthread.php?threadid=11319&page=3#113064

As you are probably aware these are mainly copyright CDs. Copyright on the DataFile and Foundation RISC Usewr ones are owned by me, rights to the RISC User CD is owned by R-Comp, the Acorn User CDs by John Cartmell and the Kosovo CD by Paul Johnson.

You might think that because they contain PD there's no copyright, but this isn't the case.

If you apologise and withdraw all this stuff and assure me it won't happen again and take steps to stop any further distribution by anyone you may have given copies to I may be willing to forget about it. If not I'll try to make some sort of estimate as to how many have been illegally downloaded and, bearing in mind the ones I own are still being sold as a current product by me, estimate the possible cost to me and take appropriate action to secure some sort of recompense.

Since the FRU DVD alove sells for 29 GBP that's probably going to come to some hundreds of pounds at the very least, so I suggest you quickly get to work to track them all down and give the the assurance I require.

Of course, I can't speak for the other parties whose material you've distributed.....

David
.

--
_ _
/\ |_)| \| David Holden - dave@apdl.co.uk
/--\| |_/|__ www.apdl.co.uk

<---SNIP--->


These people are making a living from this software, and some of it is still available for purchase. I ask you to purchase legitimate copies instead of downloading illigal ISOs. Please support the few companies we have left in the RISC OS marketplace.
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Andrew Poole Message #113181, posted by andypoole at 19:32, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113178
andypoole
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It's interesting that Dave Holden has taken to emailing Rob (And I assume only Rob - Nobody else has indicated that they've had an email from him), and hasn't posted anything in the public forums where this is actually being discussed.

Is it really possible to make a living selling a collection of software that's 15 years out of date and mostly superseded by newer versions that are freely available online anyway?*

Do people really still pay for these CDs? I'm not sure I'd pay nearly £7 for a collection of PD software that I can get most of online for free from mirrors of FTP sites or newer versions from the author's websites... It's over 10 years since I last bothered buying a CD of PD software for exactly that reason.

Also, £30 for Foundation RISC User? Wow. Most of the content of that is online for free, too.

Personally, I think it's great that these discs (particularly the AU ones) are being preserved. It also provides a great backup for those of us who actually have bought some of them in the past, but now have discs that are scratched to death and unreadable.

Andy.

* Yes, I know there will be a few exceptions where full versions/demos of commercial software are included...
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Tony Lizard Message #113182, posted by Mr Lizard at 19:54, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113178
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Posts: 24
If you apologise and withdraw all this stuff and assure me it won't happen again and take steps to stop any further distribution by anyone you may have given copies to I may be willing to forget about it. If not I'll try to make some sort of estimate as to how many have been illegally downloaded and, bearing in mind the ones I own are still being sold as a current product by me, estimate the possible cost to me and take appropriate action to secure some sort of recompense.
Dodgy Dave Holden is fully within his rights to ask for the material to be removed, of course, but a polite, friendly email would have been perfectly appropriate and done the trick just as well.

"I may be willing to forget about it", indeed! What an arsehole. I had to deal with him in the 90s and he was an arsehole then too. Some things never seem to change, do they?
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Jason Togneri Message #113183, posted by filecore at 19:59, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113181

Posts: 3867
It's interesting that Dave Holden has taken to emailing Rob (And I assume only Rob - Nobody else has indicated that they've had an email from him), and hasn't posted anything in the public forums where this is actually being discussed.
Yes. Considering how long ago the original email was (looking at Rob's withdrawl post), it's a downright shock that nobody else has been contacted. There may be a slight veneer of legitimacy to the email, but the ill-tempered manner in which it was carried out, coupled with the fact that he targeted the person least at fault in all of this, just makes the whole thing into one big joke.
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Chris Williams Message #113184, posted by diodesign at 20:40, 31/1/2010, in reply to message #113183
diodesign
The Opposition

Posts: 269
Just makes the whole thing into one big joke
Innit? The PD library business model died when the worldwide web exploded into the mainstream and open source software became the norm for distributing 'free' software.

It's a dead model, it's no longer applicable. We're talking about a catalogue of software of mainly historical interest that *anyone* can distribute - the sort of thing ideal for a website with a database.

Plus, is anyone actually still buying these CDs? Dave et al could claim that 500 people downloaded the ISOs so that'll be 500 * X quid - but any competent court will consider that sales may have been as many as a couple per year and award substantially lower damages. That's if it ever got to court, and given that we're talking about the ROL camp of companies here, they wouldn't have the balls.

If APDL really cared, if APDL was ever really interested in business and making money, it would have put these ISOs online and made them downloadable for a minimal fee to cover bandwidth/hosting charges and maybe day-to-day running of the business.

It's sad and ironic an in a way - someone charging for other peoples' work that they made available for free, and then getting upset 15 years later when this free software is redistributed for free via a new medium.

[Edited by diodesign at 20:43, 31/1/2010]
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The Icon Bar: Games: Best free RISC OS games!