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The Icon Bar: General: New RISC PC now what....
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New RISC PC now what.... |
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forestman (19:44 25/3/2013)
sirbod (20:00 25/3/2013)
forestman (20:36 25/3/2013)
filecore (06:33 26/3/2013)
helpful (10:25 26/3/2013)
MEmerton (10:47 26/3/2013)
filecore (12:22 26/3/2013)
bhtooefr (10:50 28/3/2013)
forestman (20:40 29/3/2013)
swirlythingy (00:42 30/3/2013)
filecore (06:24 30/3/2013)
forestman (07:22 30/3/2013)
sirbod (09:59 30/3/2013)
filecore (14:09 30/3/2013)
bhtooefr (09:47 30/3/2013)
bhtooefr (17:42 30/3/2013)
filecore (19:17 30/3/2013)
forestman (21:18 30/3/2013)
bhtooefr (02:48 31/3/2013)
apdl (08:24 31/3/2013)
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jon black |
Message #122126, posted by forestman at 19:44, 25/3/2013 |
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Posts: 25
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I have recently bought a 2nd hand risc pc. its working but needs some tlc and i would appreciate advice...
As background I was an acorn user from 1983 till 1998 from bbc b before buying and upgrading an a3010 then a5000. I was decent enough at tinkering and had my pc setup pretty nicely but its amazing what you forget (and remember) after 15 years!....and middle button taking some time to get used to again!!
Anyhow I have an SRP10 RISC pc 200mhz with 24mb RAM, os 3.71' cd rom, aleph one 586 card, and a pretty bobbins micro vitec 14 inch monitor. I would much appreciate help on stuff below:
1. Networking: it's got no card so I need to get one. I assume apdl 10 base t card will allow me to connect to my router like I do with my pc or am I over-simplifying things?
2. Cd Rom: it seems to work but when I formatted a cd rom on my pc and loaded up with software it did not recognise it. What am I doing wrong?
(These 2 issues combined mean I can't get any software to it!!!!)
3. CMOS is knackered. I have cleaned up the battery and motherboard with vinegar and water (sarsons  ) and ordered aaa kit from apdl. Correct?
4. Vidc / monitor. Hmmm. If I run 800x600 16 mill it flickers.... That vidc issue? If I run 1024x768 it flickers....thats the monitor? No other higher resolutions..... The monitor? So this leaves me with 800x600 in 32k - barely better than the old mode 31 I used to use on my a5000. (When I wasn't using !extramodes) ??
5. I forget how big stuff was back then! I need to make space, so am going to search for TFT monitor and then vertically mount....., It has a cd rom - will it still work if I vertically mount the RISC pc?? Ok also as. 1 slice unit to do that??
That's it for now. Thanks in advance if anyone can help!!! |
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Jon Abbott |
Message #122128, posted by sirbod at 20:00, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122126 |
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Posts: 563
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Welcome back to the club.
1. Network card - they're two a penny on eBay, don't think I paid more than £15 for the three I purchased.
2. CDROM - you either need the CDROM patch, or a replacement CDROM. Might be worth grabbing a copy of UniBoot and replacing !Boot as well.
3. Just water would have been fine, AAA kit - yes.
4. Get a chuck-out LCD, the older ones tend to handle the odd modes better than modern ones.
Good to see it it's RO3.71, if you want to get any of the older software running on it, you'll have problems with later OS's. You can however soft-boot to RO5 if you feel the need to go full 32bit. |
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jon black |
Message #122129, posted by forestman at 20:36, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122128 |
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Posts: 25
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Good to be back although sadly i have lost nearly all of my old software including a load of gubbins that i had written...
Ok all makes sense except for the cd-rom and uniboot bit, thanks for the fast response...
Having played about a bit I see the !boot filer in riscos 3.7 is MUCH more complex than the old days of riscos 3.11 (which was pretty much one file!)
Is uniboot a way of me upgrading my !boot structure to include upgraded drivers etc?
(I had better get the network card to get that too!) |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122133, posted by filecore at 06:33, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122129 |
Posts: 3867
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Having played about a bit I see the !boot filer in riscos 3.7 is MUCH more complex than the old days of riscos 3.11 (which was pretty much one file!)
Is uniboot a way of me upgrading my !boot structure to include upgraded drivers etc? Yes. It's short for Universal Boot, and contains updated apps and various things you need to get other things working. Plus of course !System and all the modules therein, which will cause you grief if you're missing a load and have to source them online somewhere... |
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Bryan Hogan |
Message #122136, posted by helpful at 10:25, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122126 |
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Posts: 249
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Welcome back!
1. Yes, but RO3.7 does not have DHCP so you will have to configure the settings manually.
2. "formatted a CD ROM" - sounds like you may have used packet format (treats the CD like a big floppy) which RO3.7 can't read. Make sure you write a plain ISO format CD image.
4. Amount of flicker will depend on the refresh rate set for those modes, which depends on what monitor you have set. If you have no boot sequence then it will probably be defaulting to a lowest common setting, which will be 56Hz.
An upgrade to RO4.39 (aka RISC OS Adjust) would give DHCP, better CD support, bigger hard disc support, long file names, and a generally more polished experience.
Find your nearest user group and pop along for advice. |
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Michael Emerton |
Message #122137, posted by MEmerton at 10:47, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122136 |
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Posts: 75
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An upgrade to RO4.39 (aka RISC OS Adjust) would give DHCP, better CD support, bigger hard disc support, long file names, and a generally more polished experience.
In my opinion, RISC OS 4.39 is the best OS for an SA RiscPC!
certainly felt faster and more stable than 3.7 or even 4.
The only issues I had were those surrounding the StrongARM, and the incompatibilities that brought.
I haven't tried RISC OS 5 on one though. |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122141, posted by filecore at 12:22, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122137 |
Posts: 3867
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2. "formatted a CD ROM" - sounds like you may have used packet format (treats the CD like a big floppy) which RO3.7 can't read. Make sure you write a plain ISO format CD image. If you see an option like "Finalise CD" when burning, select this.
In my opinion, RISC OS 4.39 is the best OS for an SA RiscPC! The only issues I had were those surrounding the StrongARM, and the incompatibilities that brought. There are two sets of problems, 4.x incompatibilities and SA incompatibilities. Often these went hand-in-hand, as users often upgraded both at the same time. If I recall correctly, 3.7 was the minimum to support a StrongARM. I would recommend at least 4.02 (I was on 4.03 quite happily for a long time) but most things above are generally okay. I have also tried 4.02 softloaded to RO6 but wasn't happy with it. I tend to agree that either 4.02 or 4.39 are probably the best.
Bear in mind that RO 5 and 6 are parallel releases, not sequential. You can either go 4 -> 5 or 4 -> 6, they were made by different companies and just very confusingly named. |
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Eric Rucker |
Message #122155, posted by bhtooefr at 10:50, 28/3/2013, in reply to message #122141 |
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Posts: 337
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And most versions of 5 that run on a RiscPC are newer than 6.20, the latest version of 6.
For maximum compatibility with old software, 3.71 is the best bet, but 4.02 or 4.39 aren't bad as far as supporting old software, and most newer software requires at least 4.02. DHCP is really, really nice to have, though, so I'd run 4.39. (I've got 6.20 on my RiscPC right now.)
I'd get an ethernet card that uses the dedicated network slot, that frees up the podule slots for more things. Good news is, i-Cubed 600 family 10BaseT cards (often branded as Acorn cards) are common.
Regarding the flickering, this is where you start to run into limitations of the RiscPC architecture, as well as potentially limitations of the monitor. See, the RiscPC is unable to detect the monitor's EDID ROM (which has all the timings that the monitor expects for certain video modes), so it instead has "monitor definition files". I've found that, if I'm pushing the video hardware hard (such as 1600x1200), I end up having to tweak a MDF for the specific monitor that I'm using (had to customize one for a Dell P780, then again for a P990, then yet again for a 2001FP), but that's much less necessary at lower framebuffer sizes - 1024x768 or 800x600 is easy. But, if the refresh rate is too low, you may need to make a new entry in the MDF for a higher refresh rate. Check your monitor manufacturer's specifications first, though, for what the recommended display modes and maximum refresh rates are, and unless you really need the desktop area or are using an LCD, avoid any modes that can't run at 75 Hz or better. (On a 14" CRT, nothing good is recommended, so just replace the monitor with something better. Trinitron-based 17" and 19" CRTs are good as far as CRTs go, and I like Dell's LCDs (but not sure how most of them take RiscPC signals - the 2001FP is fine, but that's a rather high-end monitor for its time). Full disclosure, I work for Dell, but selling monitors isn't my job (fixing computers is).) The other option would be to use either a Viewfinder (works best with 4.02 or 4.39) or VPod (only works with 6.xx), which can do more modern monitor detection and larger framebuffers. |
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jon black |
Message #122183, posted by forestman at 20:40, 29/3/2013, in reply to message #122136 |
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Posts: 25
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Wow! Loads of responses thanks very much. I will post some answers and comments to your existing stuff and then have a few new questions!
> universal boot
I will get that once I have found a way of getting stuff from the Internet to my RISC pc!
> network card
Am looking for one, thanks for comments. An icubed one went for a few quid on eBay a couple of months back but pretty empty at the mo
> cd rom.
Bit of a mystery, I selected the format designed for use on wide set of systems an finalised the disc. Ie not the "floppy disk style" that can be added to at a later date. There were a few types - from memory I used 1.5 so will try again and use earliest format. Frankly I am almost out of cd-r's as use DVDs nowadays
> monitors
It does have a boot sequence set up which runs stuff such as pineapple software virus killer from 1996 etc. it loads up the adf60 definition file.
The monitor comes with a handy brochure that tells you no information on any of its technical features, however it's a pale shade of the taxan I used to have with my old a3010/5000
I am going to try a TFT monitor but whether I will get old game modes to run will be a question.
I will also play around and try to set faster refresh rates - obviously being aware of max bandwidth of vidc...
> RISC os 3.7 vs 4.02 vs. 4.39 vs 5s vs6s
Thanks for these comments. I think I will stick with 3.7 for the moment but may consider upgrades when other stuff is sorted. 4.39 looks like the popular choice I will just have to find where I get it from!
Ps from my end it looks like a total shambles having 2 groups developing 5 and 6 in parallel. Frankly seems like a fine way to damage the os. But that's an outsider view from someone who missed all that maybe there was a sensible reason!
> user groups. Good idea, I will keep an eye out. I am based in Surrey - I know there used to be stuff on in Guildford and Epsom but not sure if any of that is active any more.
> slices and vertical mounting.
I know it will cause me problems with cd rom but am considering mounting vertically for space reasons. I have the feet by the guide says not to mount a single slice pc vertically. Is that just because of the RISC of toppling as seems pretty sturdy to me!
> new! Hard disc space
The "monster" 1220mb disc is full. Mosly due to a 900mb partition for the 586 PC Card. So 2 questions
1 storage increase What do people recommend? I know the so has limitations with IDE controller size etc?
2 PC Card. Is there any value at all of me having the 586 PC Card and windows 95 when I have a core i7 windows laptop??!!!
> new! Memory
I have 24mb. So far seems plenty but appreciate any comments on whether I should consider upgrading.
Thanks everyone!!! |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122197, posted by swirlythingy at 00:42, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122183 |
Posts: 460
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Ps from my end it looks like a total shambles having 2 groups developing 5 and 6 in parallel. Frankly seems like a fine way to damage the os. But that's an outsider view from someone who missed all that maybe there was a sensible reason! There was not. |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122198, posted by filecore at 06:24, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122183 |
Posts: 3867
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> new! Hard disc space
The "monster" 1220mb disc is full. Mosly due to a 900mb partition for the 586 PC Card. So 2 questions
1 storage increase What do people recommend? I know the so has limitations with IDE controller size etc? Personally, I switched my creaky old HDD for a much larger SSD - that is to say, I bought a cheap two euro IDE-to-CF adapter from eBay, and stuck a 1GB CF card into the machine. Much quieter, too. I believe you can use up to 4GB which should solve your space problem (although it will take a loooooooooong time to format). And delete that 900MB partition too.
2 PC Card. Is there any value at all of me having the 586 PC Card and windows 95 when I have a core i7 windows laptop? None whatsoever, if you're looking to run PC apps. The only reason to have one is if you're interested in converting between the systems, or writting platform-agnostic software. That would only have been of use to you in the mid- to late 1990s. I'd say ditch it.
> new! Memory
I have 24mb. So far seems plenty but appreciate any comments on whether I should consider upgrading. It's possible to have a maximum of 256MB in a RiscPC but unlike in common or garden x86 boxen, it is not a case of more is better. RiscPCs can suffer from a variety of exciting stability issues when maxed out. I have a similar amount of RAM as you [actually I misremembered, I actually have 66MB (64 RAM + 2 VRAM)] and personally, 8-32MB is the sweet spot. Anything above 4MB is good.
Video RAM, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. Investing in the whole 2MB maximum supported VRAM is more than worthwhile, but here it's a case of "any is better than none". Some later programs won't even run without at least 1MB installed. I found a couple of modules floating around on eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=vram&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=acorn+vram&_sacat=0
> network card
Am looking for one, thanks for comments. An icubed one went for a few quid on eBay a couple of months back but pretty empty at the mo For what it is, this is maybe a little pricey at £17 but if you really want it, the price isn't much above the average (they often go in the £10-15 range, even now): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/i-Cubed-600-002-Archimedes-Network-Card-600V2-RJ45-BNC-/230824717837?pt=UK_Computing_NetworkCards_RL&hash=item35be39ae0d
(And still cheaper than £35-45 that CJE* is asking for.)
* I'm sorry, I just can't type out their full name, what with that mangled apostrophe and all.
[Edited by filecore at 06:31, 30/3/2013] |
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jon black |
Message #122199, posted by forestman at 07:22, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122198 |
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Posts: 25
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@filecore - I saw a network card on ebay but could not tell the specifications from the posting, this one from blackmore says rh45 but i cant see that port - but assume it looks fine? Also interesting comments on sd card. I will have a think, I want to keep a bit "retro" or could have just bought a raspberry pi or one of the other modern systems that can run riscos
I deleted the pc partition last night. Lots more space for the next few hours!!!
I finally managed to start transferring via cd rom, the problem was that windows kept defaulting to Udf format when I needed CDfs...tougher than you think! (Using Roxio creator classic, data disk, then setting "joliet" system, and read only disk....)
I also downloaded uniboot and some great software from the site below that allowed me to read the pc zips and then unpack old adf disk images I had taken.
http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/documents/newold.html
Ran some old os3.11 stuff, had quite a few crashes, and got caught by my wife playing chuckle egg...!!
Also now I have uniboot it comes with a much bigger list of monitor definition files including one for my monitor. Ironically however even the 800x600 modes in the official file flickers as at 56hz due to low spec of monitor. The monitor is rubbish, even if push the refresh past it's maximums it soon comes unstuck on resolution, after destroying my monitor definition file I am using the acorn60 file for the mo....!
i have 2mb VRAM luckily. Could do with that being more 
Finally I have already managed to mess up and repair my uniboot setup which made me feel good reminded me of the past!
Sunday is scheduled for CMOS battery replacement, which is probably when things will go wrong..,.!!
Thanks all!
[Edited by forestman at 07:58, 30/3/2013]
[Edited by forestman at 14:40, 28/4/2013] |
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Eric Rucker |
Message #122203, posted by bhtooefr at 09:47, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122198 |
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Posts: 337
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I was under the impression that as long as the modules were 32 MiB or smaller, there were no stability issues (so 64 MiB total RAM is fine if it's done with two 32 MiB modules). It's when you either started using certain 64 MiB modules on certain revisions of board (and if the modules you have are stable with the board you have, no problem all the way to 192), or when you actually got to 256 MiB, that I thought there was trouble.
My RiscPC was stable with 96, although I did end up burning out the VIDC by running it at 152 MHz without additional cooling. Anything over 100 MHz is, according to the VIDC's datasheet, overclocking, even though !MakeModes and the OS's VIDC bandwidth limit will allow 152 MHz without complaining.
In any case, those cards do have the RJ-45 - you can see the very bottom of it.
[Edited by bhtooefr at 09:52, 30/3/2013] |
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Jon Abbott |
Message #122204, posted by sirbod at 09:59, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122199 |
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Ran some old os3.11 stuff, had quite a few crashes Assuming its games you're trying, I've been documenting patches here
With the current version of ADFFS you can get quite a few RO3.1 only games running up to RO3.71. The next release will add VIDC1 to VIDC20 translation to get a lot more working (currently around 30 known to work), there's more work needed before this is ready for public release though. |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122209, posted by filecore at 14:09, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122199 |
Posts: 3867
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@filecore - I saw a network card on ebay but could not tell the specifications from the posting, this one from blackmore says rh45 but i cant see that port - but assume it looks fine? If you look carefully, the bit of the RJ45 connector that is visible is the two black plastic bits just below the BNC connector in that photo (the gap is where the little plastic catch goes). The problem is they're showing the side of the card without the connectors - if the photo was from the other side, you'd see the RJ45 connector as a unit.
The physical gap left for the RJ45 connector clip is different from modern NICs which have the plastic edging all the way around, but this is the exact same NIC that I have in my own RPC. The photo on that eBay listing is almost identical point-of-view to the fourth one here, in case you're still worried. The others there should settle your fears |
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Eric Rucker |
Message #122213, posted by bhtooefr at 17:42, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122183 |
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Posts: 337
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Oh, and re: getting 4.39, you'll have to upgrade ROMs.
You can softload from 3.60-3.71 to 4.02, but you don't get the filesystem improvements that 4.02 brings (because 3.x can't boot off of a 4.02 filesystem), and you can't softload to anything newer than 4.02.
You can run either 4.02 or 4.39 ROMs, though, and softload from 4.02 to any newer version.
Unfortunately, looks like APDL is the official dealer of all of RISCOS Ltd's former inventory. He probably didn't reflash the flash 4.39 ROMs with viruses... (Although, I don't actually see the 4.xx ROMs on APDL's site. And, everyone get your bingo cards out for that one.) |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122215, posted by filecore at 19:17, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122213 |
Posts: 3867
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Unfortunately, looks like APDL is the official dealer of all of RISCOS Ltd's former inventory. He probably didn't reflash the flash 4.39 ROMs with viruses... For the uninitiated, that's a reference to this.
(Although, I don't actually see the 4.xx ROMs on APDL's site. And, everyone get your bingo cards out for that one.) And that is probably another reference to this. |
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jon black |
Message #122217, posted by forestman at 21:18, 30/3/2013, in reply to message #122215 |
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Posts: 25
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It's all going nicely, I have had the machine apart and have (hopefully) soldered an apdl aaa battery kit. I say hopefully as first couple of times it booted up with a crumbled screen although delete key worked to correct that and since then have powered off and on and it has remembered its settings
My dad (bless him) had a TFT monitor kicking about and it has transformed the computer. Even running akf60 definition files 1024x768 desktop is rock solid without flicker
I did find the ROMs for sale finally here despite them saying go to apdl....
http://www.e-junkie.com/43789/product/104422.php#RISC+OS+4.39+ROM+Upgrade
Will order a network card tomorrow off for a bite to eat! |
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Eric Rucker |
Message #122219, posted by bhtooefr at 02:48, 31/3/2013, in reply to message #122217 |
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Posts: 337
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I would guess that's an outdated page, given that that's ROL's old store, and http://iconbar.com/articles/3QD_Developments_acquire_RISC_OS_from_RISCOS_Ltd/index1279.html mentions that APDL is handling physical inventory now. |
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David Holden |
Message #122220, posted by apdl at 08:24, 31/3/2013, in reply to message #122219 |
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Posts: 138
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I would guess that's an outdated page, given that that's ROL's old store, and http://iconbar.com/articles/3QD_Developments_acquire_RISC_OS_from_RISCOS_Ltd/index1279.html mentions that APDL is handling physical inventory now. It's still valid. The orders just get passed to me.
Also, by popular demand, we are now able to supply RISC OS 4.02 ROMs. They're not on the site yet as it's in the process of being completely re-designed with various other new items, but if anyone wants them just contact me. As you might expect they're cheaper than 4.39. |
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The Icon Bar: General: New RISC PC now what.... | |
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