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The Icon Bar: Games: Fear
 
  Fear
  This is a long thread. Click here to view the threaded list.
 
Jeffrey Lee Message #85056, posted by Phlamethrower at 20:15, 13/12/2000
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15100
Fear can be a powerful tool in computer games. It can attract people to the game and keep them playing it, as well as making it more realistic and immersive. But what is it that will make us afraid?

In my opinion you need to be afraid of losing something - In real life it could be your money, job, friends and family, your life, or even just a games show. But what about in computer games? If you loose anything, then (in a single player world) you can usually just reload and try again. In deathmatch, you just wait to respawn, and then spend a bit of time getting some equipment again.

In a more organised round-based game, when your life is important because you have a limited number, things start to change. You be more careful in what you do, not being such of a dare-devil. You stick with your team for protection. You may even run away from a suicidal battle. If you die, not only are you out of the game (not fun), but you also carry the burden of letting your team down. To some people this may not matter, so they won't be so afraid, but other people can get paranoid and do things like shoot their teammates because they thought they were an enemy.

What we need is a game that harnesses fear, and keeps the player(s) hooked on it. So in order to do that, not only do we need to be afraid of something, and stay afraid of it. Single player games fall down at this point, because once you've played a level or beaten a certain enemy, you know where they are and how they act. This is one thing we need to remove - the predictability. The game's oponents must be realistic, preferably random each time you play (with near infinite combinations), and so must the levels. No more taking short cuts to supply areas, because they won't be there any more.

Once we have given them something to be afraid of, we need to give them a reason to be afraid. It's usually loss of their life, or failing a mission and having to start again. But that is where the problem lies - you can start again. I'm not necessarily saying to remove the ablility to save your progress in a game, because that would make it almost impossible to complete. What could be done though is to have dynamic levels - so that when you do reload, the areas you haven't been to yet are set up differently.
For multiplayer this could be done as well, although it is likely to be more difficult.

People are bound to get used to this though, so in order to prolong the fear we need the right environment. Darkness and strange sounds helps, especially if you aren't sure what or where your enemy is. Teamplay can help as well, but a game where two human teams face each other is designed to be balanced so is completely useless. What you need instead is an uneven game, where humans fight some superior enemy (e.g. aliens from the film). By giving different people different skills, it will make them invaluable team members and will hopefully promote teamplay - distracting an alien while someone else escapes, or sets up something to help the team (e.g. a trap). When you do die, you could be put in a reinforcements area, waiting to be let back in. If the aliens kill everyone before thay can call for reinforcements, then the team loses. Otherwise the fight continues.

A battle like this might be too much though, so a constant hope that they will succeed must be present.

Getting a game like this together is bound to be difficult, but it can be done.

(I shall continue this later, probably tommorrow. Got to go now....)

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Andrew Message #85057, posted by andreww at 23:39, 13/12/2000, in reply to message #85056
AA refugee
Posts: 555
Some great ideas there Jeffrey.
Yet again, look at Exile. The sheer size of the planet and the range and actions of overpowering and highly dangerous obstacles and enemies made the game unpredictable and set the challenge by unnerving the player.
For extreme unpredictability there was the random appearance of Triax's robots and Triax himself to scare you. And the planet was teeming with life so you were very rarely alone for long!
It was definitely a frightening game.
Also somebody once said, a good game must give the player the feeling of something new each time you've played it and the feeling that you've progressed further.
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Mark Quint Message #85058, posted by ToiletDuck at 08:46, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85057
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
hmmm some good ideas smile
I've got some ideas that would crossover with this for a new game for RiscOS, and I shall put it forward to VOTI soon - It should include what you mention, and also a new style of gameplay not seen on RiscOS smile
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Shane Message #85059, posted by Ramuh at 11:14, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85058
AA refugee
Posts: 35
Resident Evil.

Try playing it with and without the music - the sound makes SUCH a difference. The lighting effects in the pre-rendered scenes are excellent as well, giving the suggestion that something *might* be lurking.

Haven't played Resident Evil 2 or 3 yet, I don't think my heart could stand it.

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Jeffrey Lee Message #85060, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:45, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85059
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15100
(Continuing....)

I think I've got down just about all I want to say about the concept there. Now comes the tricky part - designing a game (that will preferably run on current hardware) that will do the above.

First off, there is the big question. What kind of interface/world will it be? 2D? 3D? Text-based?

2D worlds are pretty easy to make, and can easily be randomly generated (although getting them to look good like that may be tricky). Fear can still be prevalent, e.g. playing Abuse on the hardest skill level with the gamma correction set to the correct level (i.e. virtually pitch black). Getting random creatures that look different each time you play may be the hardest part though.

3D worlds can help players get lost, and also offers a resticted view - from inside someone's head. Shadows could be quite nice as well. Obviously the main drawbacks though are the 3D engine itself, as it must be pretty good to run decently on anything less than a SA, and the fact that dynamic 3D levels are hard to make. Plus making all the models and textures is likely to take longer than in 2D. Random creatures is just about possible, say based around different skeletons and limbs. Basic colour information for these could be given, which is then blended together into a complete skin (supposing there will be textures).

Next comes text-based. These are the most common form of MUD, since they are reasonably lag-less and can describe things quite well. The only problem is that because everything is typed in, players usually have quite a bit of time to make their descision so it isn't so scary. Also the interpreter must be top-notch, so that it understands what you say, hopefully including spelling mistake support if any real-time effort is made. NPC's must be quite convincing as well. Text-based worlds are perhaps the best for dynamic levels, since they are quite easy to randomly generate. Random monsters are also quite easy to do, since it just involves changing a few words around in the description. Because the user is somewhat free to imagine the situation themselves, it could be quite realistic. Unless they have no imagination of course. Getting lost is also probably the easiest thing to do. The world itself doesn't have to be limited to the battle, so the people might have to wait on their home planet (NPC filled) until they get called in as reinforcements.

After that (note that I have not concluded on which is best), you have to decide who you are, where you are, and what you are fighting.

I've already outlined the need for a superior foe, but what will this foe be?

Human controlled humans aren't even considered, because of the need for it to be unbalanced, so computer controlled humans must be used instead. But getting a good plot for a human vs human battle may be difficult.

Other (Earth-based) animals could be used, e.g. something like Jurassic Park. But these are unlikely to be random, and are usually quite dumb hunters so brute force may be all that's needed.

Robots or computers aren't really very good in my opinion, since they always seem to have some kind of achilles heel, and are seen as mindless killing machines. The player is unlikely to get excited about them.

That leaves cyborgs and real aliens. Cyborgs fall foul to the robot clause, that they are only concerned with one thing (e.g. Star Trek Borg), and are either seen as impossible to beat or quite boring.

Real aliens, however, can be as weird as we like. They (presumably) have emotions, so should act like it to make things more interesting, and unlike an artificial creation are unlikely to be in constant communication with each other - making getting rid of them easier. Whether these aliens should be claw-infested beasts, silent killers, or extra-dimensional is undecided though.

So, presuming the game shall be based around aliens, we need to decide what they are and what they want.

Until next time, goodbye.

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Dave Sloan Message #85061, posted by Dave at 16:16, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85060
Member
Posts: 58
Basically, a part of this - the reload and start again part boils down to gambling - imagine a casino where all you won were chips with no cash value, and if you lost a bet, you could just reload and try that bet again. You gamble when you enter into a fight or whatever in a computer game, but if you lose, so what? I'd say that in deathmatch this is easier to set the fear in place - if you lose a life your oponent (in a 1-1 game especially) has the advantage, so it's a risk to take him/her (must remember that girly gamers are out there!) on. Jailbreak, freeze (my personal favourite) and similar mods have demonstrated this - their aim being to punish death to such an extent that it does mean that fighting is a risk.

In a single player game, this can be done by making it only savable at certain positions so that as you are approaching a save point your life becomes far more valuable and at some stage you just think "sod fighting, leg it for the save". There is a fine balance to be struck between making a game too easily save-able (remeber how easy Doom, Quake I,II and Half-life are even on the highest settings (apart from Doom Nightmare!) simply because you can attempt the same areas again and again until you do them perfectly) and tedium - repeating the same bits again and again to get to the same big bad guy (TM) monkey and get blasted away each time.

I think Starfighter had a good balance - no saving during missions etc so you had to really make like a bat out of hell for the Mothership at the end of some missions with your shields failing, and that was an adrenaline rush. I think that with games like this having save points is a good idea, although it would take a very very good plot to work in some kind of save position on a FPS - maybe a cloning cabinet type thing in Half-Life? But I do agree that the fear has been lost somewhere. Playing Cricket for example, when batting you fear losing your "life" - your wicket, but still have to try to score and you only get one "life". OK, it's not a perfect analogue, but you get the idea. You can't reload whilst your middle stump is flying towards the boundary, unfortunately cool. If someone can work this kind of gambling back into a game it would make that game far more of an adrenaline rush and hence more fun. All IMHO of course wink

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Richard Goodwin Message #85062, posted by rich at 16:19, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85061
Rich
Dictator for life
Posts: 6828
Looks like we need a "game ideas" forum smile
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Nathan Message #85063, posted by Wrath at 16:19, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85062
Member
Posts: 154
IMHO Aliens Quake was really scarey, pity you can't get it any more unhappy
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Nathan Message #85064, posted by Wrath at 16:19, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85063
Member
Posts: 154
Looks like we need a "game ideas" forum smile

I think we need a "programmers who want to code game ideas" forum smile

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Tim Fountain Message #85065, posted by tfountain at 17:24, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85064
AA refugee
Posts: 59
There's already a programming forum on the TIB forums that doesn't get much use. I don't think we need to duplicate that with another here.
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Nathan Message #85066, posted by Wrath at 17:47, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85065
Member
Posts: 154
Thought it might be a waste of space indiff
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Message #85067, posted by chrisbazley at 17:53, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85066
Member
Posts: 58
You'd be surprised, I think, how many people dislike the lack of loading/saving in Star Fighter 3000. I had someone e-mail me asking specifically for it to be implemented.

The reason that it isn't there is that SF3000 is an arcade game in the best sense of the word. It is addictive, because having just battled through a level and accumulated large amounts of dosh, you don't really want to walk away and lose it all.

Conversely, the password system allows those people who don't want to spend ages playing, to play one level at a time, starting with a minimal amount of money. It is difficult, but possible, to complete the entire game in this painful way.


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Mark Quint Message #85068, posted by ToiletDuck at 19:39, 14/12/2000, in reply to message #85067
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
YaY!
If I find enough time to read all this topic smile then my idea for a game could work pretty well tongue

Are there any programmers here interested in starting up a team to produce a 3D, First-Person "shoot-em-up" (that isnt the right description) game with an in depth storyline, and plans for a different "style" of game. (a little like multiplayer in Single player, but not tongue)

If you're interested, please respond.

(If Nathan ever replys about sorting out an IRC conference then ill see whether VOTI woudl be interested in helping me - cos im not a programmer, but I design levels & write music smile )

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Nathan Message #85069, posted by Wrath at 09:16, 15/12/2000, in reply to message #85068
Member
Posts: 154
YaY!
If I find enough time to read all this topic smile then my idea for a game could work pretty well tongue

Are there any programmers here interested in starting up a team to produce a 3D, First-Person "shoot-em-up" (that isnt the right description) game with an in depth storyline, and plans for a different "style" of game. (a little like multiplayer in Single player, but not tongue)

If you're interested, please respond.

(If Nathan ever replys about sorting out an IRC conference then ill see whether VOTI woudl be interested in helping me - cos im not a programmer, but I design levels & write music smile )

Can't make IRC this week. VOTI would probably look at it but there is a sticking point....3D engine perhaps?

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Message #85070, posted by chrisbazley at 12:07, 15/12/2000, in reply to message #85069
Member
Posts: 58
I can't believe I'm reading this. shock

You're not a programmer, yet you propose such a project? Do you not think that if it were practical, then someone would have done it by now?

Example: Remember Destiny? Robert Templeman (a fairly clever guy, I imagine) spent years on the project, and the reviewers still slated it.

I suggest you set aside five years of your life (full-time work, you understand, no socialising), for this project. Spend the first year digesting the contents of all the PRMs and reading an ARM reference manual. tongue

Alternatively, in a sensible world, we would have had brains like R.T. and Martin Piper working on implementing a graphics standard in software. (see my posting on Half-life) Then you could probably do it in only about 2 years (no social life, solid work).

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Mark Quint Message #85071, posted by ToiletDuck at 19:40, 15/12/2000, in reply to message #85070
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
nope, the idea's only recently started to appear on the PC market so i think its pretty new.
Check 'me reply to see the practicalities of a 3D engine - I think its possible, and in less than 2 years (ekkk should i say the 2 years bit tongue)

I may not be a programmer unhappy, and i see what you mean, as anyone can just come up with wild and wonderful idea, but i have investigated in how it can be done, and woudl not have suggested it if i didnt think it was possible.
I understand what you say about Destiny, and its a shame it didnt suceed unhappy but unfortunately as it developed, it moved away from what people hoped/expected it would be, and it was expected to be the new breed of RiscOS 3D games, along with Proposal.

[Edited by 22 at 19:41, 15/12/2000]

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Mark Quint Message #85072, posted by ToiletDuck at 19:52, 15/12/2000, in reply to message #85071
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
lo Nathan,
for the IRC meeting mail me with a day/time, and i should be able to make it smile
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Andrew Message #85073, posted by andreww at 23:13, 15/12/2000, in reply to message #85072
AA refugee
Posts: 555
I'll ask him when he's free Mark from his other projects. He also has a major project known as a 'girlfriend' :-)
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Mark Quint Message #85074, posted by ToiletDuck at 10:29, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85073
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
lol smile
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Jeffrey Lee Message #85075, posted by Phlamethrower at 15:28, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85074
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15100
ANYWAY, BACK TO THE TOPIC:

We are up to deciding what the aliens are, and what they want. Also I'm running out of steam on this post unhappy

Anyway...

Defining what an alien is could be quite difficult, but could be done on the basis of where they live, how big they are, how smart they are, and how they disable their foe.

First off they could be aquatic aliens, although this is more likely to be some ginetic experiment or something than space-travelling aliens. Being underwater is quite scary, since you have to remember to come up for air every so often, or if you have an oxygen tank you need to avoid getting it damaged. Could be quite interesting, and definately different.

Or they could be land/air based, perhaps amphibians. The standard alien type, intelligence similar to humans I suppose.

Or they could be truly space-based, able to live in space. These however are unlikely to be interested in killing humans, since space is pretty big and they would have no use for Earth.

Next comes size. Small aliens are likely to attack in swarms, but since they are so small are difficult to target in 2D/3D worlds so may be bad. Also swarms of 3D (or 2D) things tend to slow the game down.

Medium-size aliens (about dog to bear size) are easier to hit, and are likely to be pretty smart and good at tearing people limb from limb. Also the usual size that games go for.

Large aliens (bear up to T-rex) are usually included in games as well, e.g. as the big boss. Advantages for fear are that they are usually faster than humans, can deal a lot of damage, and need a lot of punishment to take down. However because of this they may be seen as dumb (look at the big dinosaurs), and usually can't follow people down small passages.

Very large aliens (T-rex and above) hardly ever feature, since they are likely to be unstoppable. Although this would be handy for the fear factor, the levels they are in would have to be massive. Also something this big is likely to be able to destroy the landscape to get to you, which would not only make you defenseless, but also make programming the game engine more difficult.

Moving onto smartness then, dumb aliens (as I've already said) are only likely to be scary if they have some other advantage (e.g. are big and can do a lot of damage, or attack in swarms).

Aliens which are smarter though (about human level) are scarier, and may have some extra senses (e.g. hearing, smell) which might be left out for dumb aliens. However they are harder to program unhappy They may also attack in groups.

Very smart aliens are not only the toughest to code, but also to take down. Ones that can dodge your shots, work as a team, learn your tactics and guess your next move are very nice to have in a game, and extra senses (even telepathic communication) add to the fear. Stealthy aliens are also a must.

Next to how they disable their foe. Not all aliens are going to rip you limb from limb, some might pick you off at long range, or may even turn the environment against you and crush you in doors, blast you out into space, or drown you. Aliens that can do all of these are going to be scarier, especially if they really do understand the level and the way it works - this gives an illusion of intelligence (which they may well have), which makes the player think they are fighting a real enemy, not just a computer.

Now to what they want.
Some aliens might want you as food, which would be interesting to do if they were to eat you alive - you might escape, but with some serious damage (e.g. a limb or two missing).

They might want to lay eggs in you, which would be interesting in co-operative games - kill your infected friend now, or both continue fighting until the eggs are about to hatch. Of course you may run the risk of being infected yourself.

They may even be scavengers, stealing techonology from other races. These are likely to be the ones that set traps and 'test' things out on you, rather than just wiping you out personally.

Or they may just want you and your people out the way, in which case they may just be dumb killers and hence not very scary.

All that is left is to decide on who and where you are.

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Andrew Message #85076, posted by andreww at 17:24, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85075
AA refugee
Posts: 555
Some good ideas there Jeffrey.
I'm hoping to add a variety of alien forms and intelligence levels to my game.
The ever-present problem is there however of making the graphics.
Mark's has done one model for one character but there will have to be a lot more I expect.
I hadn't thought of some of these intelligent strategies though that you mention.
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Mark Quint Message #85077, posted by ToiletDuck at 18:44, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85076
Ooh ducky!Quack Quack
Posts: 1016
Alien characters then??
it 'aint gonna be easy but i could mess-around with Truespace & see whether we could build some alien characters.
Ill search the interent to see if i can find some alien skeletons to use.
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Dave Sloan Message #85078, posted by Dave at 21:29, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85077
Member
Posts: 58
this is more likely to be some ginetic experiment

By a drunken mad professor then I assume? monkey

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Andrew Message #85079, posted by andreww at 23:03, 16/12/2000, in reply to message #85078
AA refugee
Posts: 555
Alien characters then??
it 'aint gonna be easy but i could mess-around with Truespace & see whether we could build some alien characters.
Ill search the interent to see if i can find some alien skeletons to use.

You'll find plenty on 3dcafe.com but they are quite complex and probably difficult to manipulate for what we want although I don't know the capabilities of your software.

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Jeffrey Lee Message #85080, posted by Phlamethrower at 10:48, 18/12/2000, in reply to message #85079
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15100
Hmm....

In terms of who you are, there are only really two things to consider - how skilled you are in taking out the aliens, and whether you have had anything to do with them or not.

Skilled people are likely to be in the military, and so have access to some good weapons. Unskilled people may get afraid easily (which would be interesting to do in a game - you aren't doing well because your character is afraid, even if you aren't), and unlikely to know how to use the weapons properly. Also any military forces might not listen to you if you try to talk to them.

As to whether you have had anything to do with them. For example, in Abuse you are just an 'innocent' prisoner, who has taken it on himself to protect the world. This means you don't know much about your enemy. In Half-Life, you were one of the scientists who caused the accident, and were actually studying the aliens before they invaded. This (in a more detailed game) would mean that you know something about them, e.g. any weaknesses. This would make the game easier, but also maybe harder - the military weren't very pleased that you were involved.

Finally, where you are. This doesn't have to just be the place, it can also be the time zone - people stoning aliens to death, shooting them with machine guns, or melting them with lasers. The more primitive the technology, the scarier it is because the harder it becomes to kill them. However it also makes it less scary, in the respect that there isn't much landscape for the smart aliens to turn against you. You could even go into a magic based game, where it's humans vs izards, or wizards vs aliens, where it would be more a case of out thinking the alien than out manouevering or out gunning.

Once you have decided on all that, you need to make the game. Have fun smile

(As to whether I'll make one, just wait until I get round to my next post...)

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Steve Allen Message #85081, posted by [Steve] at 02:03, 22/12/2000, in reply to message #85080
AA refugee
Posts: 56
But Gordon Freeman had a beard!!! Surely must have affected the gameplay - are you really going to try and kill someone with a fun AND a beard???

Mind you he had a ponytail too so that might have counteracted that.

I have nothing to add to the topic, Id love to be one of these people that will talk about writing a game for aaages and never do it (some exceptions wink) but I'm doing a computer studies degree so Ill wait till I finish learning meself a bit of C++ - I tried learning ARM code but the Acorn User tutorials were lame, I could never find a resource listing all of the SWI codes and noone could find the ARM code book I was after unhappy

The market doesnt exatctly help anyone trying to learn anything does it?

But that can wait for another thread.

smile
________
[Steve]
RiscPC SA & Duron 600@850
ICQ: 51028779

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Nathan Message #85082, posted by Wrath at 07:17, 22/12/2000, in reply to message #85081
Member
Posts: 154
I have nothing to add to the topic, Id love to be one of these people that will talk about writing a game for aaages and never do.

Hmmmm. [bitch]You mean like a lot of RO coders?[/bitch]

Wouldn't be a good idea to do that as it seriously yanks my chain and I'd never recruit another "Say and not do" coder.

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Steve Allen Message #85083, posted by [Steve] at 14:19, 22/12/2000, in reply to message #85082
AA refugee
Posts: 56
I was partially getting at that but at least they can code so I'm going to put a smiley here ---> tongue and run grin

I sort of know how you feel - I did a small bit of music for someones Freespace 2 T/C and they never did anything!

Gits.

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Jeffrey Lee Message #85084, posted by Phlamethrower at 16:32, 22/12/2000, in reply to message #85083
PhlamethrowerHot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot stuff

Posts: 15100
Procrastination is a programmer's main weapon.
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Steve Allen Message #85085, posted by [Steve] at 02:38, 23/12/2000, in reply to message #85084
AA refugee
Posts: 56
Can someone remind me what procrastination mean's I've forgotten smile
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The Icon Bar: Games: Fear