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The Icon Bar: General: RISCube and RISC Book?
 
  RISCube and RISC Book?
  This is a long thread. Click here to view the threaded list.
 
Mike Message #98917, posted by MikeCarter at 21:21, 21/2/2007
MikeCarter

Posts: 401
Is it not cheaper buying a nice Vaio laptop and buying VRPC seperatly?

What is so differnt to doing that than having it pre-installed?
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Phil Mellor Message #98919, posted by monkeyson2 at 21:29, 21/2/2007, in reply to message #98917
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
Support?
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Andrew Poole Message #98921, posted by andypoole at 22:00, 21/2/2007, in reply to message #98919
andypoole
Mouse enthusiast
Web
Twitter

Posts: 5557
Support?
Don't you get support from VA if you buy it anyway?

Aside from that, the difference is likely cost
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Rob Kendrick Message #98981, posted by nunfetishist at 20:07, 22/2/2007, in reply to message #98917
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 515
Nice? Viao? Eh?
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Phil Mellor Message #98982, posted by monkeyson2 at 20:46, 22/2/2007, in reply to message #98981
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

Posts: 12380
Nice? Viao? Eh?
It's Sony and Microsoft at the same time. Run for the hills! Run for the hills!
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Mike Message #98984, posted by MikeCarter at 21:13, 22/2/2007, in reply to message #98981
MikeCarter

Posts: 401
Nice? Viao? Eh?
Hey, its a very nice laptop, especially when im running in Ubuntu.
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Rob Kendrick Message #98985, posted by nunfetishist at 21:35, 22/2/2007, in reply to message #98984
nunfetishist
Today's phish is trout a la creme.

Posts: 515
No, Sony don't make any nice laptops. You're clearly very confused.
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Andrew Rawnsley Message #98990, posted by arawnsley at 23:25, 22/2/2007, in reply to message #98985
R-Comp chap
Posts: 569
It is a popular misconception that our machines are just some PCs with VA stuck on em. I suppose you could describe a BMW as a Skoda with a nice badge and leather seats. Same analogy, but there are people eager to suggest otherwise.

It takes approximately 12-15 hours of work to do a 'cube or book. Actually building the hardware of a cube takes about 1hr due to the care that goes into the assembly. Each item is adjust to ensure best fitting, cable flow, minimal air blockage, acurate positioning (so that things pop open correctly, and so on. We use noise dampning washers and pads to reduce fan noise, selected components of low-noise operation, and so on.(Translation - top notch building and engineering).

The rest of the time is software work. We utilise a lot of our own custom software to allow smooth booting into RISC OS or Windows at user's choice. Over an hour of time is spent just customising RISC OS - VirtualAcorn does not ship in an optimal state.

Additional software links the RISC OS and Windows platforms together, whilst other custom files boost performance, up to four fold above a flat VA install, depending on the machine in question. Software is pre-configured, drives mapped through to RISC OS, files are backed up in case of corruption and so on.

The Windows side affects VA significantly. RISCubes use sepacially selected hardware components and drivers to give optimal RISC OS results. The choice of a particular driver can make HUGE differences to performance, and often non-public drivers give significant benefits. Most off-the-shelf PCs come with out of date drivers and don't even include basic stuff like updates (let alone the essential fixes that are issued but not available for download via Windows Update eg. dual coure performace fix). Over 150 separate tweaks/modifications are made to Windows to increase stability, performance and compatibility.

PC users are often confused that we actually help our customers if they have problems. For example, yesterday I had a woman on the phone who had attempted to apply "PC logic" to RISC OS. She was stunned that we didn't just say "reinstall everything" and were actually able to fix her mistakes over the phone. Quality of support tends to vary a lot, and I would hope that people who have partaken of R-Comp tech support have generally gone away with working solutions!

Perhaps the above isn't valuable to you - well, that's OK. But bear in mind that RISCubes are probably responsible for more returning RISC OS users than anything else right now (with the possible exception of cheap RiscPCs!). For many people (even well known RISC OS faces), a pure ARM machine no longer does what they need. By buying a RISCube or RISCbook, not only do they get a quality product, top performance and full support, but more importantly they are funding RISC OS development. Virtually every R-Comp/RCI upgrade in the last few years has been possible due to the success of RISCubes and RISCBooks.

[Edited by arawnsley at 23:30, 22/2/2007]
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Mike Message #98992, posted by MikeCarter at 08:50, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98990
MikeCarter

Posts: 401
Ok, thankyou for the explanation.
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Colin Cartmell-Browne Message #98997, posted by Col at 10:36, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98990
Member
Posts: 89
I'd just add that I brought a laptop from Andrew about 2 years ago and have had no problems with it at all- a testiment to the hardwork RComp put in!
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Andrew Message #98998, posted by andrew at 10:47, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98990
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
It is a popular misconception that our machines are just some PCs with VA stuck on em. I suppose you could describe a BMW as a Skoda with a nice badge and leather seats. Same analogy, but there are people eager to suggest otherwise.

It takes approximately 12-15 hours of work to do a 'cube or book. Actually building the hardware of a cube takes about 1hr due to the care that goes into the assembly. Each item is adjust to ensure best fitting, cable flow, minimal air blockage, acurate positioning (so that things pop open correctly, and so on. We use noise dampning washers and pads to reduce fan noise, selected components of low-noise operation, and so on.(Translation - top notch building and engineering).

The rest of the time is software work. We utilise a lot of our own custom software to allow smooth booting into RISC OS or Windows at user's choice. Over an hour of time is spent just customising RISC OS - VirtualAcorn does not ship in an optimal state.

Additional software links the RISC OS and Windows platforms together, whilst other custom files boost performance, up to four fold above a flat VA install, depending on the machine in question. Software is pre-configured, drives mapped through to RISC OS, files are backed up in case of corruption and so on.

The Windows side affects VA significantly. RISCubes use sepacially selected hardware components and drivers to give optimal RISC OS results. The choice of a particular driver can make HUGE differences to performance, and often non-public drivers give significant benefits. Most off-the-shelf PCs come with out of date drivers and don't even include basic stuff like updates (let alone the essential fixes that are issued but not available for download via Windows Update eg. dual coure performace fix). Over 150 separate tweaks/modifications are made to Windows to increase stability, performance and compatibility.

PC users are often confused that we actually help our customers if they have problems. For example, yesterday I had a woman on the phone who had attempted to apply "PC logic" to RISC OS. She was stunned that we didn't just say "reinstall everything" and were actually able to fix her mistakes over the phone. Quality of support tends to vary a lot, and I would hope that people who have partaken of R-Comp tech support have generally gone away with working solutions!

Perhaps the above isn't valuable to you - well, that's OK. But bear in mind that RISCubes are probably responsible for more returning RISC OS users than anything else right now (with the possible exception of cheap RiscPCs!). For many people (even well known RISC OS faces), a pure ARM machine no longer does what they need. By buying a RISCube or RISCbook, not only do they get a quality product, top performance and full support, but more importantly they are funding RISC OS development. Virtually every R-Comp/RCI upgrade in the last few years has been possible due to the success of RISCubes and RISCBooks.

[Edited by arawnsley at 23:30, 22/2/2007]
But not hardware development which is, of course, what made the whole RISC OS and Acorn and all its history possible in the first place. Where's the innovation? For you it seems it's software but as I've always suspected RISC OS emulation is a near total dead-end and deeply dangerous for the platform whenever it becomes an end in itself.
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Peter Howkins Message #98999, posted by flibble at 11:33, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98998
flibble

Posts: 888
But not hardware development which is, of course, what made the whole RISC OS and Acorn and all its history possible in the first place. Where's the innovation? For you it seems it's software but as I've always suspected RISC OS emulation is a near total dead-end and deeply dangerous for the platform whenever it becomes an end in itself.
What would you rather people do instead? Do you have a business plan?

If people are willing to buy emulator based products then there's a market to sell them to them. Emulated products have brought a sizable income to some of those companies still remaining in RISC OS land [1], without it they might have already left [*].

[1] From ROL comments by PM at recentish Rogoul.
[*] conjecture
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Andrew Message #99000, posted by andrew at 11:51, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98999
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
Many people have left /because/ of the lack of hardware which provides a justification and incentive to write new software. Thankfully RISC OS machines have continued to have longevity up til now.

[Edited by andrew at 11:52, 23/2/2007]
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Peter Howkins Message #99001, posted by flibble at 12:12, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99000
flibble

Posts: 888
Many people have left /because/ of the lack of hardware which provides a justification and incentive to write new software.
I guess people left for many different reasons, I only know the reasons why I left and a few friends a family that chose to tell me.

Thankfully RISC OS machines have continued to have longevity up til now.
Machines run until the hardware dies, even on a platform with no new development at all they are as compatible as they were on the day of the last change.

I've some old PCs that still run fine and are as old as Acorn kit, that I've replaced them doesn't mean they die.

What would you rather people do instead? Do you have a business plan?

Emulation works now, is fast enough for general use, probably outperforms your SA RPC (easily on disc access) and lets you run windows apps on the same machine (something considered important enough for the RPC PC Card to exist).

Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but I couldn't read your post without thinking it was another rose-tinted spectacles nostalgia thread The world has moved on considerably from the days when acorn could make a new machines every year or two.
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Colin Cartmell-Browne Message #99002, posted by Col at 12:21, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #98999
Member
Posts: 89
In addition to this I'd argue that hardware sales have not supported the development of new hardware for many years.

From my understanding of the situation both the Iyonix and the A9 were financially supported from OEM work outside the desktop market and I don't think the availabilty (or lack of) of VA would have changed that.(IMHO of course)

The bottom line is the native RISC OS hardware market is too small for RISC OS companies to survive on its income alone. If companies such as RCOMP/CJE etc have to subisdise the, very good, work they do by selling pcs with VA installed then thats fine with me.

In a perfect world of course this wouldn't be necessary, but then in a perfect world we'd all be millionaires living in whatever our own personal idea of paradise is and not have to worry about a little thing like the cost of living!
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Andrew Message #99003, posted by andrew at 13:32, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99001
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
Many people have left /because/ of the lack of hardware which provides a justification and incentive to write new software.
I guess people left for many different reasons, I only know the reasons why I left and a few friends a family that chose to tell me.

Thankfully RISC OS machines have continued to have longevity up til now.
Machines run until the hardware dies, even on a platform with no new development at all they are as compatible as they were on the day of the last change.

I've some old PCs that still run fine and are as old as Acorn kit, that I've replaced them doesn't mean they die.
Fine, nobody is talking about emulating PC's at the moment.


What would you rather people do instead? Do you have a business plan?

Emulation works now, is fast enough for general use, probably outperforms your SA RPC (easily on disc access) and lets you run windows apps on the same machine (something considered important enough for the RPC PC Card to exist).

Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but I couldn't read your post without thinking it was another rose-tinted spectacles nostalgia thread The world has moved on considerably from the days when acorn could make a new machines every year or two.
There's nothing "rose tinted" about wanting the platform to have a future. What would you have people do - give up and leave?
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Andrew Message #99004, posted by andrew at 13:34, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99002
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
In addition to this I'd argue that hardware sales have not supported the development of new hardware for many years.

From my understanding of the situation both the Iyonix and the A9 were financially supported from OEM work outside the desktop market and I don't think the availabilty (or lack of) of VA would have changed that.(IMHO of course)

The bottom line is the native RISC OS hardware market is too small for RISC OS companies to survive on its income alone. If companies such as RCOMP/CJE etc have to subisdise the, very good, work they do by selling pcs with VA installed then thats fine with me.

In a perfect world of course this wouldn't be necessary, but then in a perfect world we'd all be millionaires living in whatever our own personal idea of paradise is and not have to worry about a little thing like the cost of living!
Yes but the only feedback AUIU that RCI get is money for RISC OS software. The hardware companies can feed the knowledge base they accrue together with any profit back into RISC OS hardware development.
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Peter Howkins Message #99008, posted by flibble at 14:43, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99003
flibble

Posts: 888
I've some old PCs that still run fine and are as old as Acorn kit, that I've replaced them doesn't mean they die.
Fine, nobody is talking about emulating PC's at the moment.
They don't need to talk about it, it exists and has done for years. From Qemu to dosbox to virtualisation technologies. Funny thing is, no one seems to be complaining that it's destroying the native hardware market.



What would you rather people do instead? Do you have a business plan?

Emulation works now, is fast enough for general use, probably outperforms your SA RPC (easily on disc access) and lets you run windows apps on the same machine (something considered important enough for the RPC PC Card to exist).

Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but I couldn't read your post without thinking it was another rose-tinted spectacles nostalgia thread The world has moved on considerably from the days when acorn could make a new machines every year or two.
There's nothing "rose tinted" about wanting the platform to have a future. What would you have people do
I would like for people on the ground to stop telling companies what they should and shouldn't sell for 'ethical', 'purity' and 'saving the platform reasons' particularly when they offer no thought-through alternative.

If you don't like a product don't buy it, but don't dictate to anyone else what they should or should not buy. As I mentioned above there is a market for emulated solutions, and it's being met.

I'd also like for the users in RO land to stop seeing things as 'Us Vs. Them' with endless permutations of groups.

'ROL Vs. Castle'
'Emulated Vs. "proper" hardware'
'CastleUSB Vs. SimtecUSB'
'People that use RO exclusivly Vs. People that have another OS as well'
and even
'Current Users Vs. Former Users'

In a market this small alienating people for no good reason is to cut of a vital supply of people that can contribute.

I'd also like the remaining RO users to assume lessa about the people that have left. Don't assume, but do feel free to ask them.

I'd like for people to be able to make a choice as to their future without being feeling guilty about 'not doing enough to save RO' or not spending enough. A choice without being harangued by different OS advocacy groups trying their best to persuade people one way or another to justify their own decisions. A informed choice with real life experiences and not advocacy based horror stories. If people choose to stick with RO in that climate then I'm happy for them.

That's what I'd like, but I don't think I'll get it

- give up and leave?
They are free to do as they choose, and always have been. If you want to leave that's fine, if you want to stay that's fine.

Should ROL, RCI, CJE and VA (the people providing the services) give up and leave because you dislike emulators? Perhaps they should carry on trying to stay in business.
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Andrew Message #99009, posted by andrew at 15:08, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99008
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
I've some old PCs that still run fine and are as old as Acorn kit, that I've replaced them doesn't mean they die.
Fine, nobody is talking about emulating PC's at the moment.
They don't need to talk about it, it exists and has done for years. From Qemu to dosbox to virtualisation technologies. Funny thing is, no one seems to be complaining that it's destroying the native hardware market.
It's hardly a comparable situation I'd say.




What would you rather people do instead? Do you have a business plan?

Emulation works now, is fast enough for general use, probably outperforms your SA RPC (easily on disc access) and lets you run windows apps on the same machine (something considered important enough for the RPC PC Card to exist).

Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but I couldn't read your post without thinking it was another rose-tinted spectacles nostalgia thread The world has moved on considerably from the days when acorn could make a new machines every year or two.
There's nothing "rose tinted" about wanting the platform to have a future. What would you have people do
I would like for people on the ground to stop telling companies what they should and shouldn't sell for 'ethical', 'purity' and 'saving the platform reasons' particularly when they offer no thought-through alternative.
Nobody is telling companies, I'm just offering an alternative view to strapping emulators to hardware from which RISC OS gets virtually nothing as being a good thing.

If you don't like a product don't buy it, but don't dictate to anyone else what they should or should not buy. As I mentioned above there is a market for emulated solutions, and it's being met.
I'm not dictating. Mote and beam if ever I heard it.


I'd also like for the users in RO land to stop seeing things as 'Us Vs. Them' with endless permutations of groups.

'ROL Vs. Castle'
'Emulated Vs. "proper" hardware'
'CastleUSB Vs. SimtecUSB'
'People that use RO exclusivly Vs. People that have another OS as well'
and even
'Current Users Vs. Former Users'

In a market this small alienating people for no good reason is to cut of a vital supply of people that can contribute.
Few to my knowledge are alienating "people" but they have every right to continually challenge a notion without it being mis-portrayed as personal attacks.


I'd also like the remaining RO users to assume lessa about the people that have left. Don't assume, but do feel free to ask them.

I'd like for people to be able to make a choice as to their future without being feeling guilty about 'not doing enough to save RO' or not spending enough. A choice without being harangued by different OS advocacy groups trying their best to persuade people one way or another to justify their own decisions. A informed choice with real life experiences and not advocacy based horror stories. If people choose to stick with RO in that climate then I'm happy for them.

That's what I'd like, but I don't think I'll get it

- give up and leave?
They are free to do as they choose, and always have been. If you want to leave that's fine, if you want to stay that's fine.

Should ROL, RCI, CJE and VA (the people providing the services) give up and leave because you dislike emulators? Perhaps they should carry on trying to stay in business.
ROL make an operating system for native hardware. CJE sell native hardware. RCI is in terms of benefitting RISC OS to my mind a software retailer.
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Peter Howkins Message #99013, posted by flibble at 16:38, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99009
flibble

Posts: 888
<snip offtopicness about PC emulation as I a) don't know why you brought it up b) don't understand the comparison you're trying to draw>





There's nothing "rose tinted" about wanting the platform to have a future. What would you have people do
I would like for people on the ground to stop telling companies what they should and shouldn't sell for 'ethical', 'purity' and 'saving the platform reasons' particularly when they offer no thought-through alternative.
Nobody is telling companies, I'm just offering an alternative view to strapping emulators to hardware from which RISC OS gets virtually nothing as being a good thing.
A view based on what? It's bad because?

I thought you might want to here the counter argument to the idea that emulators bring virtually nothing. I'm going to have to make an assumption about the RISC OS you refer to here. That it's the 'RISC OS market/community'.

Here's the benefits to that market/community that RCI/CJE selling one laptop to one user brings.

1) A RO user gained or retained, one more person that is a potential buyer of future software, a potential contributor to the RO voluntary projects.
2) A dealer receives a profit, in the case of RCI or CJE that dealer might choose to invest it in future RO software procurement or advancement.
3) ROL receive a license fee from the copy of RO4 or RO Adjust to fund future development.
[1]

How could this be a bad thing for a small market like RISC OS?

But none of these matters in comparison too the benefits to the end users.

1) They get a computer they wanted.

[1] The benefits for real arm hardware is nearly identical, a user, a dealer cut, a hardware maker cut, an OS provider cut.




If you don't like a product don't buy it, but don't dictate to anyone else what they should or should not buy. As I mentioned above there is a market for emulated solutions, and it's being met.
I'm not dictating. Mote and beam if ever I heard it.
I had to look 'mote and beam' up before answering this one

Possibly, certainly an over reaction to a three line sentance I guess I'm just beginning to get fed up with people (including myself) in ro land spouting off in forums without thinking it through.

It would help if you could clarify things for me if you could say whether you agree or disagree with the following statement or alternatively give me more info in your own words.

"There should not be any RISC OS emulation products available"





- give up and leave?
They are free to do as they choose, and always have been. If you want to leave that's fine, if you want to stay that's fine.

Should ROL, RCI, CJE and VA (the people providing the services) give up and leave because you dislike emulators? Perhaps they should carry on trying to stay in business.
ROL make an operating system for native hardware.
And the very same OS runs on emulated hardware (because the emulator is accurate). It costs them very little to provide an image for emulators and brings them in a income. Without the thousands of VA sales ROL would have a lot less cash to develop the OS.

CJE sell native hardware.
And laptops with VA on.

RCI is in terms of benefitting RISC OS to my mind a software retailer.
And yet sell VA machines.

It appears there's a difference between what you perceive (or would like) these companies to do and what they actually do (and would like to do).

They all benefit from sales of emulation products, whether you (the market/community) do, and whether they should care if you don't, is a matter I leave up to them.

These are companies, they have to act in their own interests to stay in business, at the moment emulated products are bringing them an income for comparatively little investment, I guess they'll keep selling them as long as people keep buying them.

Ps As a user of an SA rpc, you've not exactly jumped at the chance of a new RO machine in the past, why should they trust that you'll do it in future and invest lots in designing a new one
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Andrew Message #99036, posted by andrew at 19:31, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99013
HandbagHandbag Boi
Posts: 3439
<snip offtopicness about PC emulation as I a) don't know why you brought it up b) don't understand the comparison you're trying to draw>





There's nothing "rose tinted" about wanting the platform to have a future. What would you have people do
I would like for people on the ground to stop telling companies what they should and shouldn't sell for 'ethical', 'purity' and 'saving the platform reasons' particularly when they offer no thought-through alternative.
Nobody is telling companies, I'm just offering an alternative view to strapping emulators to hardware from which RISC OS gets virtually nothing as being a good thing.
A view based on what? It's bad because?

I thought you might want to here the counter argument to the idea that emulators bring virtually nothing. I'm going to have to make an assumption about the RISC OS you refer to here. That it's the 'RISC OS market/community'.
The money goes to an alien company making alien hardware. I'd hae thought that was pretty obvious.


Here's the benefits to that market/community that RCI/CJE selling one laptop to one user brings.

1) A RO user gained or retained, one more person that is a potential buyer of future software, a potential contributor to the RO voluntary projects.
2) A dealer receives a profit, in the case of RCI or CJE that dealer might choose to invest it in future RO software procurement or advancement.
3) ROL receive a license fee from the copy of RO4 or RO Adjust to fund future development.
[1]

How could this be a bad thing for a small market like RISC OS?
My point was about hardware development which underlies the whole existence of Acorn/RISC OS anyway.
What is this urge to homogenise, conform, converge and coalesce eliminating any choice, difference or variety? It's a pretty narrow minded view.


But none of these matters in comparison too the benefits to the end users.

1) They get a computer they wanted.

[1] The benefits for real arm hardware is nearly identical, a user, a dealer cut, a hardware maker cut, an OS provider cut.
There's no hardware user by virtue of the fact the've bought a different platform. Which hardware developers sell both?





If you don't like a product don't buy it, but don't dictate to anyone else what they should or should not buy. As I mentioned above there is a market for emulated solutions, and it's being met.
I'm not dictating. Mote and beam if ever I heard it.
I had to look 'mote and beam' up before answering this one

Possibly, certainly an over reaction to a three line sentance I guess I'm just beginning to get fed up with people (including myself) in ro land spouting off in forums without thinking it through.

It would help if you could clarify things for me if you could say whether you agree or disagree with the following statement or alternatively give me more info in your own words.

"There should not be any RISC OS emulation products available"
I'm saying I think RISC OS emulation is deeply damaging to the future of the platform.






- give up and leave?
They are free to do as they choose, and always have been. If you want to leave that's fine, if you want to stay that's fine.

Should ROL, RCI, CJE and VA (the people providing the services) give up and leave because you dislike emulators? Perhaps they should carry on trying to stay in business.
ROL make an operating system for native hardware.
And the very same OS runs on emulated hardware (because the emulator is accurate). It costs them very little to provide an image for emulators and brings them in a income.
No. The incentive was and always was to build for native hardware. The moment it becomes otherwise is the day that the company cheapens its whole existence and the history behind its inheritance.




Without the thousands of VA sales ROL would have a lot less cash to develop the OS.

CJE sell native hardware.
And laptops with VA on.

RCI is in terms of benefitting RISC OS to my mind a software retailer.
And yet sell VA machines.
This is going round in circles. *in terms of benefitting RISC OS". Selling alien hardware does not do anything as far as I can see to make new hardware more feasible except the tenuous possibility that emulation users might shell out on a new RISC OS machine /if/ one arrives. But selling it as an emulation system sends out a fatal signal in my view towards that goal.


It appears there's a difference between what you perceive (or would like) these companies to do and what they actually do (and would like to do).

They all benefit from sales of emulation products, whether you (the market/community) do, and whether they should care if you don't, is a matter I leave up to them.
Well if you've already left the RISC OS market then you don't have a stake. Some of us haven't and it's entirely right for us to argue on these matters.



These are companies, they have to act in their own interests to stay in business, at the moment emulated products are bringing them an income for comparatively little investment, I guess they'll keep selling them as long as people keep buying them.
Well that's an altogether different matter. If a company or more accurately in RISC OS a person sees that they can't put food on the table without making changes then no reasonable person is going to argue against that. But if the way you're doing that is not satsifactory then people should have no hesistation in speaking up to voice exactly what they think this forebodes and what they think is going on.


Ps As a user of an SA rpc, you've not exactly jumped at the chance of a new RO machine in the past, why should they trust that you'll do it in future and invest lots in designing a new one
I've always bought RISC OS hardware whenever I have the money and feel I've reached the limits of value for money and usability with my existing machine. It's to the credit of RISC OS community that the latter isn't exploited too much with built-in obsolescence and is a mark of its decency that provides precisely the motivation for my wanting to defend the unique hardware base in the first place.

[Edited by andrew at 19:34, 23/2/2007]

[Edited by andrew at 19:36, 23/2/2007]
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Phil Mellor Message #99038, posted by monkeyson2 at 19:38, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99036
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

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The money goes to an alien company making alien hardware.
Have you been listening to Paul Vigay again?
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VinceH Message #99043, posted by VincceH at 21:31, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99036
VincceH
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Andrew. first of all you quote too much. Way too much. Second of all, you are saying, in essence, that emulation is A Bad thingtm but think on this:

Earlier this week, I made available an updated version of an ancient relocatable module. It was only a minor update, but it made I don't know how many old bits and pieces I wrote 32bit compatible, simply because they used that module. Perhaps nobody uses them anymore - I don't know, but the fact that 19 people have downloaded it since it was made available suggests otherwise. Not many, but if even one person was (say) using Aemulor to run RandomAncientSRSProggy.bas because it used the module, then that's one person in RISC OS land who has benefited from my use of an emulator.

Because I've long since reached the point that for general computer use, a Windows machine is far more practical for me - so if it wasn't for emulation, that update would quite simply not have happened. There would be no further work on (for example) WaitUntil, or WebChange, or - just to name something that doesn't also begin with W - QuadLink - and that would be another developer out of the market.

<looks at that again and thinks about it>

On the other hand, maybe you're right - maybe emulation is a bad thing!

Bad emulator, naughty emulator, if it wasn't for you they'd be rid of me.

[Edited by VincceH at 21:32, 23/2/2007]
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Phil Mellor Message #99045, posted by monkeyson2 at 21:39, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99043
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

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I have an Iyonix and hardly use it. If Virtual Acorn was released for the Mac a couple of years ago I'd have bought it and used it quite a lot.

It's certainly possible to make money from an emulated platform - see the prices Nintendo charge for their virtual console games as an example - you just need a different business plan.
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Mike Message #99047, posted by MikeCarter at 21:46, 23/2/2007, in reply to message #99045
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Also emulation is great for those students have have little money, or those who are new and intrested in getting involved with the platform but dont want to splash out on a real piece of RO hardware just yet.
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Andrew Message #99086, posted by andrew at 13:14, 24/2/2007, in reply to message #99045
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I have an Iyonix and hardly use it. If Virtual Acorn was released for the Mac a couple of years ago I'd have bought it and used it quite a lot.

It's certainly possible to make money from an emulated platform - see the prices Nintendo charge for their virtual console games as an example - you just need a different business plan.
Why don't you use your Iyonix?
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Phil Mellor Message #99087, posted by monkeyson2 at 13:23, 24/2/2007, in reply to message #99086
monkeyson2Please don't let them make me be a monkey butler

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Why don't you use your Iyonix?
The main things I use my home computer for are web browsing, web development, listening to music, and watching videos. The Mac does all these things "better", and it's quieter too (the fans in the Iyonix have become a bit noisy). The Mac shares its wireless network connection to the Iyonix through ethernet so I'd need it on anyway.

If I was still interested in recreational programming, or needed to do some DTP, I may be inclined to boot up the Iyonix. But unfortunately RISC OS's few remaining strengths aren't what I need right now.
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Andrew Poole Message #99089, posted by andypoole at 13:41, 24/2/2007, in reply to message #99047
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Also emulation is great for those students have have little money, or those who are new and intrested in getting involved with the platform but dont want to splash out on a real piece of RO hardware just yet.
Hm. I'm fairly sure you can buy a second hand RiscPC for less than it costs for VirtualRiscPC nowadays.
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Andrew Poole Message #99090, posted by andypoole at 13:44, 24/2/2007, in reply to message #99087
andypoole
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Why don't you use your Iyonix?
The main things I use my home computer for are web browsing, web development, listening to music, and watching videos. The Mac does all these things "better", and it's quieter too (the fans in the Iyonix have become a bit noisy). The Mac shares its wireless network connection to the Iyonix through ethernet so I'd need it on anyway.

If I was still interested in recreational programming, or needed to do some DTP, I may be inclined to boot up the Iyonix. But unfortunately RISC OS's few remaining strengths aren't what I need right now.
I kind of agree with this. I don't use my RiscPC very much at all now. I almost always use my mac. There are the odd few times I'll use the RiscPC for digging out some stuff or fiddling with Draw (which I'm yet to find a decent equivalent of on any platform), but other than that, the mac does everything else I need to do (web, email, music, video, DVD, IM, p2p etc). Plus it's much quieter, and so can be left on at night without being able to hear it running (even though it's next to the bed, I can only hear it if I'm specifically listening for it).
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Andrew Message #99101, posted by andrew at 19:44, 24/2/2007, in reply to message #99087
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Why don't you use your Iyonix?
The main things I use my home computer for are web browsing, web development, listening to music, and watching videos. The Mac does all these things "better", and it's quieter too (the fans in the Iyonix have become a bit noisy). The Mac shares its wireless network connection to the Iyonix through ethernet so I'd need it on anyway.

If I was still interested in recreational programming, or needed to do some DTP, I may be inclined to boot up the Iyonix. But unfortunately RISC OS's few remaining strengths aren't what I need right now.
The fans have become noisy? Is that a commonproblem with the Iyonix? I thoguht one of its main attractions for RiscPC users was its almost silent operation.
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